African Burial Ground

[BigMac]

CNN
February 28, 2006

NYC burial ground declared national monument

An estimated 20,000 slaves, free blacks interred at site

African Burial Ground (http://www.africanburialground.gov/)

NEW YORK (AP) -- President Bush has declared part of the African Burial Ground in lower Manhattan, where an estimated 20,000 slaves and free blacks were buried in the 18th century, a national monument.

The monument will allow "visitors to better understand and honor the culture and vital contributions of generations of Africans and Americans of African descent to our Nation," Bush said in a proclamation signed Monday.

A memorial is planned for the designated land, which covers less than half an acre within a National Historic Landmark.

The burial ground north of City Hall was closed in 1794 and was eventually forgotten as construction landfill buried it 20 feet deep. It was rediscovered in 1991 during construction of a federal office tower, and community pressure and protests led the government to abandon work on the building.

More than 400 sets of remains were found, half of them belonging to children. Many of them showed signs of malnourishment, severe arthritis and injuries caused by intense physical labor.

The National Historic Landmark, covering about seven acres, was designated in 1993 and has been jointly managed by the Park Service and the General Services Administration.

© 2006 Cable News Network LP, LLLP.

[lofter1]

info here: http://www.nypl.org/research/sc/afb/shell.html

[Jake]

If they were alive today they'd want us to have a nice 1000' tower there.:)

There's already a huge monument to this in Fort Greene Park in Brooklyn.

ugh, call me insensitive but jeez PEOPLE DIE, it's one thing when it's Gettysburg, or Pearl Harbor or D-Day but a monument to a cemetary? That's just ridiculous IMO. I want a memorial to my ancestors, they also DIED, and were probably malnourished, and worked hard. Do you think I can spearhead some kind of an effort to build one? I want it in front of the NYSE because that's where....ummm...my great grandpa bought a a beaver hat that gave him allergies.

[ZippyTheChimp]

There's already a huge monument to this in Fort Greene Park in Brooklyn.What monument are you talking about?

ugh, call me insensitiveNo, just ignorant of history.

[ryan]

Early New York was built by slaves. I don't think there could be too many monuments to remember that.

[lofter1]

There's already a huge monument to this in Fort Greene Park in Brooklyn.
That is a whole different thing.

The Ft. Greene Park Monument ( "Prison Ship Martyrs Monument" ) memorializes those who were held as prisoners by the British during the Revolutionary War:

http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~promaine/martyrs/martyrs-all.html

http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~promaine/pics/pcd/4098/Fort-Greene-column-view-4098-0010.JPG

http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~promaine/martyrs/


During the American Revolution, the British imprisoned many Americans (mostly, but not entirely soldiers fighting in the cause of independence) in various make-shift prisons around the then-city of New York. These included the notorious Sugar House on Manhattan, and various retired naval vessels anchored in Wallabout Bay (incorporated into the current Brooklyn Navy Yard). The most notorious of these was the New Jersey, and as a consequence they were often called the "Jersey Prison Ships." Conditions in the eleven or so vessels were horrendous and men died every day. After the war, the death rate in the prisons was estimated at more than 10,000. (Not all authorities agree on the numbers, but the totals were high; the most commonly cited number is 11,500. However, Howard Metzer writing in 1973 called this number "propaganda", while Stiles, cited below, appears to suggest that this number comes from a 1783 newspaper source attacking the British.) This is an appalling number, considering that a typical "large" army in the Revolution might number 8,000-12,000. Post-war memoirs by prisoners were particularly bitter towards Loyalist prison keepers, who were more brutal than either British or Hessian soldiers.

[Jake]

My point is that there are hundreds of so called "burial grounds" in NYC. What makes this special? IMO it's a cemetary which should be set apart and called that. What exactly is this a monument to?

Are there any family members to whom this will bring closure?

OK, so my opinion is controversial, but that is the point of a forum.

and BTW that source isn't exactly fool-proof...


Most press stories regarding the African Burial Ground in New York city perpetuate the modern urban myth that this landmark was found by construction workers. That is not true.
Newspapers and press releases generally state that “The burial ground lay forgotten until workers uncovered it while excavating for a new federal building in 1991.” Although they were workers, they were working archaeologists. The African Burial Grounds were found by a carefully researched archaeological investigation developed by archaeologist Edward S. Rutsch.

from the NJ Highland Historical Society

[stache]

I was by there a couple of years ago with some extra time so I looked at the exhibit. It was interesting, they had blowup photos of some of the artifacts found in the graves, mainly things like buttons and coins.

[Kris]

March 6, 2006
Site of African Burial Ground Gets Recognition, and Money
By ANTHONY RAMIREZ

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/03/06/nyregion/06burial.184.jpg
There are plans for a memorial center on the site of the African Burial Ground near City Hall.

Not far from the Greco-Roman courthouse in Downtown Manhattan made familiar by the television show "Law and Order" is the place once called the Negroes Burial Ground.

From about 1640 to 1795, historians say, perhaps 15,000 slaves were buried there in a forgotten wasteland. Many had died before the age of 12. Some had died within two years of arriving in chains.

The federal government announced plans last week for an $8 million memorial and visitor center on part of the site, now known as the African Burial Ground. They are scheduled to be completed this fall. The memorial was designed by Aarris Architects of Manhattan.

President Bush also proclaimed the space, about a third of an acre at Duane and Elk Streets, a national monument, like the Statue of Liberty. The overall site, the equivalent of nearly seven acres, is the oldest and largest African burial site in North America, according to the National Park Service.

"We preserve this sacred ground," Gale A. Norton, the secretary of the Interior Department, said at last week's ceremony overlooking the memorial site. She added, "We will not allow steel and glass towers to cover holy ground."

David N. Dinkins, who was mayor when the burial ground was uncovered, said, "Our young folks coming along need to know our history."

Howard Dodson, chief of the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture, said in an interview that the burial ground had revolutionized both scholarship and popular awareness of slavery.

Before the discovery, said Mr. Dodson, one of the early leaders in the development of the memorial, many people saw slavery as a Southern institution. "What the burial ground has revealed is that all the founding 13 colonies were slavery societies," he said.

The slave trade flourished in New York, historians say. While human trafficking was abolished in 1808, it was not until 1827 that slavery itself was banned in New York State, one of the last Northern states to do so. (New Jersey was the last, in 1866.) At the middle of the 18th century, however, one in five New York City residents was a slave, a proportion second only to that of Charleston, S.C.

In ancient cities like Athens or Jerusalem, important archaeological sites are often found accidentally when deep holes are dug for electrical lines or building foundations. In 1991, workers excavating the foundation for the Ted Weiss federal building at 290 Broadway uncovered what was eventually a total of 419 human remains.

Archaeologists and anthropologists studied the excavated remains until 2003, when they were reburied at what will now be the African Burial Ground Memorial Site. The remains are buried adjacent to the planned $3 million memorial. A $5 million visitor center next door will be a part of the Ted Weiss building.

The memorial site covers a fraction of what is thought to be a larger burial field for slaves and a small number of free blacks. New Yorkers work, walk, shop and have lunch above the rest of the African Burial Ground, which totals abut 6.6 acres some 25 feet below ground.

Maps and other historical records put the approximate boundaries of the burial ground as the northern edge of City Hall Park, from a Duane Reade drug store at Chambers Street and Broadway and east toward the Municipal Building at Chambers and Centre Street, then north on Centre to Duane Street.

Scientists from Howard University who studied the burial remains and about 600 burial artifacts, including coins, jewelry and shroud pins for the dead, made important discoveries, said Christopher Moore, the Schomburg Center's research coordinator. Nearly half of the remains were from people under the age of 12, according to the Howard University research. Child labor contributed to the deaths, with researchers finding bone fractures and stress, especially in the neck and back, that indicated heavy lifting.

But one of the most important results of the Howard study is to put a human face to slavery, said Mr. Moore, who makes burial ground presentations at schools. He uses a photograph of a woman's skeletal arm cradling the skeletal remains of an infant.

"Young people titter and giggle when they see a skeleton," Mr. Moore said. "They think it's Halloween. But when they see it's a mother and child, a calm comes over the room."

Mr. Dodson, the Schomburg Center chief, said memorial leaders are not stopping at the national monument designation.

"We'd like to see it," Mr. Dodson said, "on the World Heritage List of the United Nations," which includes sites like the Necropolis of ancient Thebes.

Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company

[antinimby]

The $8 million is coming from the Feds, right?

[BigMac]

Curbed
April 12, 2006

Another Downtown Memorial, Ready by Mid-Fall

By Jeremy

http://www.curbed.com/archives/2006_04_africanburialground.jpeg

While a realistic completion date for the World Trade Center memorial remains hard to nail down, another downtown memorial—at the African Burial Ground—is under construction and set to be done by this October, according to a feature (http://lowermanhattan.info/construction/rebuilding_spotlight/cultivating_african_diaspora_in_81328.asp) this week on the LMDC's LowerManhattan.info site. It's located at Duane and Elk streets, a few blocks behind City Hall. Rodney Leon's winning design, chosen last April, is rendered above. Any live shots from the construction site are always welcome at tips@curbed.com.

Copyright © 2006 Curbed

[BigMac]

Downtown Express
August 18, 2006

African Burial Ground selects two firms to design center

By Janet Kwon

Two firms have been selected to design the African Burial Ground’s interpretive center in Lower Manhattan.

Roberta Washington Associates of Manhattan will design the space at the 290 Broadway federal building and Amaze Design, Inc of Boston will produce a 15-minute film for the center as well as an oral history exhibit on the creation of the national monument at Duane and Elk Sts. About 20,000 Africans are believed to be buried at the former cemetery.

The center is expected to open in 2008. Architect Rodney Leon’s design for the outdoor memorial across the street was chosen in 2005 and is expected to open in the fall of 2007.

“[The Interpretive Center] will provide information about the African Burial Ground and also about the rediscovery of the site in ‘91 and the community involvement and the activism that led to the awareness that we have today,” said Tara Morrison, an African Burial Ground spokesperson, referring to when the site was first discovered in 1991 during construction work for a federal building. President Bush designated the burial ground as a National Monument February of this year.

The African Burial Ground National Monument is a multi-agency effort, combining the General Services Administration and the National Park Service. The entire burial ground project encompasses three main elements: the memorial commemorating those anonymously buried beneath the site; the Office of Public Education and Interpretation, which will provide information about the burial ground via literature as well as scheduled lectures; and the interpretive center which will offer historical, archeological and cultural background about the site.

“It’s an archeological site; it needs a place like an interpretive center to relay the story to the visiting public, as opposed to visiting a historic site like a building, for example,” Morrison said, adding that the center, which will cost $4.7 million for construction and development, will utilize exhibits and interpretive media to engage the public. The center will be located on the first floor of the Ted Weiss Federal Building on Broadway.

“There will be a 15-minute film…we’re also interested in including oral history of individuals who had been involved during the rediscovery period from a scientific, academic and community activist standpoint,” she said about the center.

Roberta Washington Associates and Amaze Designs are scheduled to present their initial design ideas to the public in late September.

© 2006 Community Media, LLC

[lofter1]

They've started to install the black granite atop the concrete sub-structure here ...

For more information click here (http://www.africanburialground.gov/ABG_Main.htm) to visit the African Burial Ground website.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Federal%20Plaza/AfricanBurial_01b.jpg

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p242/Lofter1/Federal%20Plaza/AfricanBurial_01a.jpg

[namvet3]

When I was a kid, too damn long ago, Leroy Street Park was an asphalt covered softball field, and an enclosed handball court, and a Boccie Ball court. One day, when I was away, in the Marine Corps, someone decided to "unpave the field, and lo and behold a cemetery for Negroes was found, under the asphalt.
Well, the remains were moved, and a new grass covered ball field was made for gays and lesbians, but kids were no longer allowed to freely use the park, ever again.
So, to answer someone's question, "Yes Virginia, Negroes and kids will always take a backseat, to the homosexual community." And, the public be damned! The field was never locked, but now is. What a shame!:(

[ablarc]

...a new grass covered ball field was made for gays and lesbians...
How can you tell?

[nyc.dreamin]

Hey, I walked right by this yesterday. I was wondering what it was.

[namvet3]

Please, don't misunderstand me. The fact that the park was re-designated for a select few, is my beef, not that it was for gays and lesbians. Everyone in the City was allowed to use the ball field, and the handball courts. The only time there was a restriction was on a Friday night when the CYO league had scheduled games. Now, no one can use it, except a small select group. The field went from asphalt, to grass, and now it is just a dirt covered field, that's locked up. No one can get into this City Park.
I was born and raised in the Village. My sister and cousin still live there. I was born on 10th st., lived on Christopher St., Hudson and Perry St. and Houston and Sixth Ave. I seen changes and revivals, both good and bad, but I don't see the "neighborly" feeling of all the strange faces walking up and down Bleeker St.
The village was Italian and Irish, inter mingled with beatniks. Many of you will never know the feeling of a smack for taking an apple from a push cart. Not from the vendor, but from someone who knew your mother and father. "OUCH!":D

[lofter1]

I see kids leagues playing baseball on those fields at Leroy / Hudson ...

Wondering what you're talking about :confused:

[namvet3]

Well then, it seems that the City has changed its policy. Is it an open park or is it still locked up, preventing everyone except those chosen few, to use it? That is my whole point. Parks should be for everyone's use. It was, years ago. Then the "special interests" took over. It's good to know that kids can play a ball game there, now. However, any 10 to 16 kids from the neighborhood could have a game, anytime back then. Times change, not necessarily for the best.

[ZippyTheChimp]

What does Walker Park have to do with the African burial ground?

[namvet3]

Ever hear of "6 degrees of separation?":) Some on this topic had expressed dismay at memorializing a long forgottencemeteryy. I had just recounted how, when "refurbishing" Leroy Street Park, a Negro burial ground was discovered. No memorial, no ceremony, just removal of the remains, filling in the holes, and planting grass seed, and the cry of "Play Ball!" Sign of the times, I guess. ;):D

[lofter1]

Parks should be for everyone's use ... Then the "special nterests" took over ...10 to 16 kids from the neighborhood could have a game, anytime back then. Times change, not necessarily for the best.

Admittedly a bit off topic ... but:

In a city where they now want to require a permit to take photos if you are in a group of 5 (?) or more is it surprising that a spontaneous gathering in a park for a game of ball is not allowed?

Agreed that many changes in the social fabric of NYC are NOT for the best :(

[BigMac]

Associated Press
October 5, 2007

African Burial Ground Opens

By SAMANTHA GROSS

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20071001/capt.3e6f0a3b20fb4cd3a29108e8b586d431.african_buri al_ground__nytf102.jpg
Workers finish up construction of the memorial at the African Burial Ground National Momument in New York, Monday, Oct. 1, 2007.

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20071005/capt.0008a2af2d5d455cbf6227115e8c4572.african_buri al_ground_nybm101.jpg
Architect Rodney Leon stands inside the African Burial Ground Monument he designed.

Workers polished the granite and tended to other last-minute details Friday before a dedication ceremony at a memorial at the African Burial Ground, where free blacks and slaves were buried more than two centuries ago.

The ceremony at the lower Manhattan site comes 16 years after bones were rediscovered there.

Starting Friday afternoon, visitors can enter a 20-foot-high chamber of gray stone with water elements running beside it. Designer Rodney Leon stood inside the chamber before the dedication, his voice echoing inside the granite.

"Your voice is projected here," he said. "Hopefully, it can be heard not only in the immediate area, but by the ancestors too."

Alongside the chamber sits a circular court, with a map inscribed into the center. The majority of the space is green, with seven grassy mounds marking the spots where some of the disinterred bones were reburied four years ago.

Secretary of the Interior Dirk Kempthorne and poet Maya Angelou were among the invited guests.

Until the burial ground was closed just before the turn of the 19th century, it served as the final resting place for tens of thousands of people of African descent. The cemetery was forgotten as the city expanded above and around it, eventually burying the site more than 20 feet underground.

It was rediscovered — along with more than 400 sets of remains — during excavations for a federal building in 1991. The burial ground, most of which still lies deep beneath sidewalks, buildings and streets, was designated a national historic landmark in 1993.

Last year, the site was declared a national monument.

Copyright © 2007 The Associated Press

[Merry]

Politicians Push for African Burial Ground Museum in Lower Manhattan

US Rep. Jerrold Nadler wants a memorial museum and education center so the graves are not forgotten.

By Julie Shapiro

http://s3.amazonaws.com/sfb111/story_xlimage_2011_02_R3468_AFRICAN_BURIAL_GROUND_ LEGISLATION_02212011.jpg
The African Burial Ground on Duane Street already has an outdoor monument, but elected officials
are now advocating for a memorial museum and educational center. (Flickr/Wallyg)

LOWER MANHATTAN — The remains of thousands of slaves lie beneath the streets of lower Manhattan, out of sight and often forgotten.

To honor their memory, as well as the memory of the free African and African-Americans who were also buried there, several New York politicians are pushing for a comprehensive museum near the African Burial Ground (http://www.nps.gov/afbg/index.htm) on Duane Street. The museum would be larger than the 2,500-square-foot visitors center that opened nearby last year, and it would also cover the history of slavery across the United States.

"The African Burial Ground is a site of the utmost historic and cultural significance for New York City and the United States," U.S. Rep. Jerrold Nadler, who introduced legislation supporting the museum last week, said in a statement.

"A [museum] on those grounds will provide a means of paying respects to the thousands buried there, and will educate Americans and others about slavery's profound impact on our society."

Nadler's legislation, introduced last Thursday, would create an African Burial Ground International Memorial Museum and Educational Center adjacent to the 300-year-old cemetery.

The federal government would pay two-thirds of the cost of finding a site and building the museum, including an initial allocation of $15 million in 2012.

The legislation also sets up an advisory council for the museum, consisting of the secretary of the Interior, the National Park Service, the General Services Administration, the Smithsonian Institution, the mayor, the governor, the borough president and others.

The museum would be affiliated with the National Museum of African American History and Culture (http://nmaahc.si.edu/), scheduled to open in Washington D.C. in 2015.

The lower Manhattan burial ground first surfaced 20 years ago, when workers were digging foundations for the Ted Weiss Federal Building at 290 Broadway. After years of emotional debate about how to treat the exhumed skeletons of hundreds of men, women and children — the remains of many of which showed the trauma of a difficult life — the government decided to re-inter them in a memorial on the site.

The striking black stone monument above the graves opened in 2007 at Duane and Elk streets, and last year a small visitors center opened around the corner in the Ted Weiss building.

Nadler's legislation, which was co-sponsored by Reps. Charles Rangel and Gregory Meeks, seeks to finally bring the drawn-out saga to a close.

The museum would "help ensure that this global story of injustice, sacrifice and eventual triumph is no longer hidden nor forgotten," Rangel said in a statement.

http://www.dnainfo.com/20110221/downtown/politicians-push-for-african-burial-ground-museum-lower-manhattan#ixzz1EgUQ3F6K

[Ninjahedge]

And where would they get the money for this?

We have more important things to pay for than remembering the dead.

We should respect them, and try to learn about them, but not be so fixated on a place whose only historical significance is where their bodies now lay that we feel the need to build a heritage museum near/on top of them.

We need to always remember, but there is a difference between memory and memorializing.

[stache]

I liked the old temporary installation. It was informative and interesting.

[ZippyTheChimp]

To honor their memory, as well as the memory of the free African and African-Americans who were also buried there, several New York politicians are pushing for a comprehensive museum near the African Burial Ground (http://www.nps.gov/afbg/index.htm) on Duane Street. The museum would be larger than the 2,500-square-foot visitors center that opened nearby last year, and it would also cover the history of slavery across the United States.I think the government owned parking lot at Elk and Reade Sts would be suitable - at least 10,000 sq ft. I suppose they would kick and scream about giving up parking spaces.


but not be so fixated on a place whose only historical significance is where their bodies now lay that we feel the need to build a heritage museum near/on top of them.The memorial is already there. There's a story that goes beyond where dead people were buried.


We should respect them, and try to learn about themIsn't that what a museum is supposed to do?

[Ninjahedge]

Yes and no Zip.

i knew my comments would be dissected.

The point is simple, why do we need a separate museum for every historical event?

Are they saying that this history is somehow separate and should be studied and observed on its own? Rhetorical question.

The key here is this. We have a morbid fascination with death. We "memorialize" everything, but somehow still end up forgetting. We think that by spending millions of dollars to put up marble and slate, bronze and steel that somehow the "memory" will live on forever.

What we end up getting is something that costs money to build, operate and maintain on a subject that might garner initial interest, but its own narrow focus would server to diminish that over time.

I would rather the money be spent to help what is now rather than commemorate what was then. (Granted, of course, that the now is done in the knowledge of then and not in its ignorance for fear of repetition).

[ZippyTheChimp]

The point is simple, why do we need a separate museum for every historical event?Is that what we have? We have sports museums, skyscraper museums. What's the big deal?


We have a morbid fascination with death.Like I said, the memorial is already there. Would you feel differently if there was no burial ground, and someone noted the history of Africans in the area, and thought a museum would be appropriate?


What we end up getting is something that costs money to build, operate and maintain on a subject that might garner initial interest, but its own narrow focus would server to diminish that over time.Maybe you have no interest in the subject matter, but there was a significant presence of Africans in NYC that relates to its history. Utilizing trade winds, European ships sailed to West Africa picked up slaves. They sailed across the Atlantic to the Caribbean, dropping off some slaves to work the farms, and load sugar cane. They sailed north to the Carolinas, and then to New York, where slaves were also dropped off and sold. They unloaded the sugar cane, and loaded processed sugar, which was taken back to Europe. Why do you think there were so many sugar factories in New York?

Lots of slaves and free Africans too.

[Ninjahedge]

Is that what we have? We have sports museums, skyscraper museums. What's the big deal?

When you are short on cash, you do not spend it on so many small things. Having an exhibit in the world-class museums around the city would be more far-reaching than building one on top (or near) dead people.


Like I said, the memorial is already there. Would you feel differently if there was no burial ground, and someone noted the history of Africans in the area, and thought a museum would be appropriate?

I would think that a museum would be more appropriate than a memorial only because it does something where the other seems to be an almost egotistical showpiece by its sponsors and creators to signify that they are doing something special and should be recognized for it. I got really burned out with the over-hyped and under-funded 9-11 memorials. Somehow you needed to remember every single town that lost someone rather than feel that the loss was more universal. Somehow a Plexiglas bi-planar candle flame shape in the middle of a cinder paved area with orthogonally planted trees is supposed to be better than a plaque and a children's playground?

Why are all of our memorials places where you can't LIVE anymore? Why does the death of someone have to be remembered on the negative side? I KNOW death is not a positive thing, but does that need to be amplified by more morbid commemoration?

Bottom line is, I think both were/are a bit excessive. the memorial looks nice, but also looks like a place that will fry in the summer due to the dark stone used and also looks like a space that will be hard to be used for anything but sad remembrance.


Maybe you have no interest in the subject matter, but there was a significant presence of Africans in NYC that relates to its history. Lots of slaves and free Africans too.

I am not saying there wasn't. Please show me where I said that. The thing here is, we seem to get caught up in small pieces of history and forget how everything is related. Why do we need a SEPARATE museum next to a graveyard to commemorate and teach of slavery and slavery alone?

It is not a separate subject, and should stop being treated as such. Re-integrate it into the historical teachings of other times, not as its own animal.

I agree that without it it would have been a very different world, but putting the spotlight on it alone, and using that (and a graveyard) to foster further spending on a dedicated separate facility seems to only add to the divide that people keep trying to eliminate.

[lofter1]

Why are all of our memorials places where you can't LIVE anymore?

In this particular case the site of the Burial Memorial was carved out of the plot for the big federal building built next door (originally planned to cover the Memorial area, but changed when bones were found during excavation).

[Ninjahedge]

I think I remember that.

But I would have rather seen a park space with a plaque than an obsidian gravestone.....


(There is similar use of space in Hoboken for their 9-11 memorial. I just feel much more sympathetic when I see a playground with an "In Memoriam" notification on it than a park with little shade and uncomfortable anti-social benches....)

[lofter1]

It was a graveyard. Mapped as such by the City fathers. With bones of many still there when excavation began.

[ZippyTheChimp]

The thing here is, we seem to get caught up in small pieces of history and forget how everything is related. Why do we need a SEPARATE museum next to a graveyard to commemorate and teach of slavery and slavery alone?

It is not a separate subject, and should stop being treated as such. Re-integrate it into the historical teachings of other times, not as its own animal.

I agree that without it it would have been a very different world, but putting the spotlight on it alone, and using that (and a graveyard) to foster further spending on a dedicated separate facility seems to only add to the divide that people keep trying to eliminate.The American Revolution has no direct connection to any of my ancestors, they having arrived 120 years afterward. The same is true for the majority of Americans. Yet it would be absurd to argue that all of us aren't connected to its legacy.

Why is it different with slavery?

[Ninjahedge]

Um, tell me where I said that we were not connected. AAMOF, I said that for something we are all connected to, it is frustrating that it is still treated as a seperate animal and left to the people to make those connections themselves.

It is not different than Slavery in the mode you have described and I never said it was....

[ZippyTheChimp]

The vibe I get from your posts is - exclusion.

[Ninjahedge]

Then you need better batteries. ;)

[stache]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD8sAo-dw_4&playnext=1&list=PLE24D7E7B2671E0EC