Transcendental Cartoons

[ZippyTheChimp]

France enters Muslim cartoon row

A French newspaper has reproduced a set of Danish caricatures depicting the Prophet Muhammad that have caused outrage in the Muslim world.

France Soir said it had published the cartoons to show that "religious dogma" had no place in a secular society.

Their publication in Denmark has led to protests in several Arab nations.

Responding to France Soir's move, the French government said it supported press freedom - but added that beliefs and religions must be respected.

Islamic tradition bans depictions of the Prophet Muhammad or Allah.

Under the headline "Yes, we have the right to caricature God", France Soir ran a front page cartoon of Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim and Christian gods floating on a cloud.

It shows the Christian deity saying: "Don't complain, Muhammad, we've all been caricatured here."

The full set of Danish drawings, some of which depict the Prophet Muhammad as a terrorist, were printed on the inside pages.

Bomb threat

The paper said it had decided to republish them "because no religious dogma can impose itself on a democratic and secular society".

The global controversy the cartoons have provoked "has done nothing to maintain balance and mutual limits in democracy, respect of religious beliefs and freedom of expression", it added.

In a statement, the French foreign ministry said the decision to publish the pictures was the sole responsibility of France Soir.

The French authorities supported the principle of press freedom, the statement said, adding that that freedom must be exercised "in a spirit of tolerance and with respect for beliefs and religions".

The offices of the Danish newspaper that first published the caricatures, Jyllands-Posten, had to be evacuated on Tuesday because of a bomb threat.

The paper had apologised a day earlier for causing offence to Muslims, although it maintained it was legal under Danish law to print them.

Ministers from 17 Arab countries on Tuesday urged Denmark's government to punish Jyllands-Posten for what they described as an "offence to Islam".

Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen welcomed the paper's apology but defended the freedom of the press.

The images' publication in Denmark has provoked diplomatic sanctions and threats from Islamic militants across the Muslim world.

Thousands of Palestinians demonstrated this week in the Gaza Strip, burning Danish flags and portraits of the Danish prime minister.

Saudi Arabia has recalled its ambassador to Denmark, while Libya said it was closing its embassy in Copenhagen and Iraq summoned the Danish envoy to condemn the cartoons.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/4669360.stm

Published: 2006/02/01 12:55:35 GMT

© BBC MMVI


Cartoon outrage bemuses Denmark

By Michael Buchanan
BBC News, Copenhagen

The diplomatic crisis between Denmark and the Muslim world may have been relatively slow to gather pace but now that it has, it is having a real impact.

It began with a series of cartoons in a Danish newspaper - including one of the Prophet Muhammad wearing a turban in the shape of a bomb.

But today few people are laughing.

The global outrage has led to the recall of ambassadors; Danish citizens in Saudi Arabia and the Palestinian territories have been forced to leave after death threats.

And Danish businesses have had to lay off hundreds of workers because of boycotts in the Muslim world. The paper has apologised but the crisis shows no sign of abating.

However, on a winter's evening at an ice rink in Copenhagen young Danes are bemused by the attention their country is receiving because of 12 drawings of the Prophet Muhammad.

"It's ridiculous," says one. "I don't see why the anger - it was a joke, you can see."

No regret

Another adds: "It's a shame it has had to come to this. I think it is very silly of people to draw such things. I think that the freedom of expression is more of an obligation than a right."

"I am not a very religious person so I don't have anything against it and I think it's absolutely too much what the Arabic countries are doing," says a young woman.

Asking me that question is like asking a rape victim if she regrets wearing a short skirt Friday night at the discotheque
Flemming Rose
Jyllands-Posten's culture editor

Just opposite the ice-rink are the Copenhagen offices of the newspaper at the centre of the controversy, the Jyllands-Posten. The building was cleared out by police on Tuesday following a bomb scare.

There was also another threat against the newspaper's headquarters in Aarhus. But despite the threats, the paper insists they were right to publish the cartoons.

"We stand by the publication of these 12 cartoons," says Flemming Rose, culture editor of the Jyllands-Posten.

He was the man who commissioned the cartoons, one of which shows the Prophet with a turban on his head covering a ticking bomb.

But knowing what he knows now, would he still commission and print those cartoons?

"That is a hypothetical question," he says. "I would say that I do not regret having commissioned those cartoons and I think asking me that question is like asking a rape victim if she regrets wearing a short skirt Friday night at the discotheque."

Job cuts

Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen does not see this diplomatic crisis in those terms.

At a packed press conference, he said that Denmark had a long tradition of freedom of the press and freedom of expression. But Mr Rasmussen said he regretted the offence caused.

"I, likewise, am deeply distressed by the fact that these drawings, by many Muslims, have been seen as a defamation of the Prophet Muhammad and Islam as a religion," he said.

"I do hope that the apology of the independent newspaper, Jyllands-Posten, will contribute to comfort those that have been hurt."

For some in Denmark, however, it is already too late.

"If we look at ourselves from a Middle East standpoint, we have been active in the market place in the Middle East for more than 40 years," says Finn Hansen, managing director of Arla Foods.

Arla Foods is one of Europe's largest manufacturers of dairy products. They have had an established market in the Middle East for decades, but a boycott of Danish goods by several Arab nations means that Mr Hansen is now looking to lay off around 100 people.

"We are today in a position where we don't really experience any sale," he says. "Even the few places where our products are still on the shelf, we do not see any turnover of our products on these shelves. So we must say the sale of our products is nil."

Moving on

Of critical importance to the resolution of this crisis will be the decisions made in the headquarters of Copenhagen's Islamic Federation.

Danish Muslims have been protesting as vigorously as anyone in the Middle East about the cartoons. But the group's chairman, Imam Ahmed Abu Laban, says they are now ready to move on.

"I think the latest apology has become more clear and more indicative to the Muslim ears," he said. "We will support after this press conference to push forward to develop the situation, to settle as soon as possible this kind of dispute and bring the boycott to an end."

Denmark's reputation as an easy-going, consensual nation has been severely tarnished in recent days. All the Danes can do now is hope the repeated apologies for the offence caused, by both the government and the newspaper, will end this unseemly row.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/4669210.stm

Published: 2006/02/01 12:10:34 GMT

© BBC MMVI

[stache]

It's about time Europeans started reacting to the growing Muslim influence around them.

[Ninjahedge]

So, lemme get this strait.

In order to express their discontent at the prophet Muhammed being portrayed at all, nevermind with a turban time bomb, the "devout" Islamics have made bomb and death threats?


GREAT way to dispel a stereotype!

[ZippyTheChimp]

More info on the Danish daily newspaper Jyllands-Posten at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons)

The page has been temporarily locked and is read-only.

I wonder what Salman Rushdie is thinking.

[Ninjahedge]

This is really sad.

For a religion and its peoples to be so insecure that ANY ribbing is seen as a cause not for dissent, but outrage.

I agree that they should have written into the paper and expressed their concern and requested they remove/abstain from doing things like that in the future, but demanding is not a right they have.

They are totally within their right to not buy or distribute the paper now, but having a boycott of everything Danish just because they did not forbid it is really a poor call on the behalf of these governments.

They are just trying to get another "us vs. them" thing going since there is not enough actual acts of barbarism for them to go on.

War over a political cartoon.

Sad.

[Jasonik]

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/06.01.31.ImageProblem-X.gif (http://face-of-muhammed.blogspot.com/)

“Jyllands-Posten called for and printed the cartoons by various Danish illustrators, after reports that artists were refusing to illustrate works about Islam, out of fear of fundamendalist retribution. The newspaper said it printed the cartoons as a test of whether Muslim fundamentalists had begun affecting the freedom of expression in Denmark.” (http://www.newspaperindex.com/blog/2005/12/10/un-to-investigate-jyllands-posten-racism/)

FORUMhttp://forum.newspaperindex.com/templates/subSilver/images/logo_phpBB.gif (http://forum.newspaperindex.com/index.php)

[ZippyTheChimp]

February 3, 2006

Temperatures Rise Over Cartoons Mocking Muhammad

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/02/02/international/02gaza.jpg
Mohammed Salem/Reuters

A gunman stood on the roof of the European Union office in the Gaza Strip today.


By CRAIG S. SMITH and IAN FISHER

PARIS, Feb. 2 — An international dispute over European newspaper cartoons deemed blasphemous by some Muslims gained momentum on Thursday when gunmen threatened the European Union offices in Gaza and more European papers pointedly published the drawings as an affirmation of freedom of speech.

In Gaza, masked gunmen swarmed the European Union offices on Thursday to protest the cartoons, and there were threats to foreigners from European countries where the cartoons have been reprinted. The gunmen stayed about 45 minutes.

A newly elected legislator from Hamas, the radical Islamic group that swept the Palestinian elections last week, said large rallies were planned in Gaza in the next few days to protest the cartoons, which depict the Prophet Muhammad in an unflattering light. Merely publishing the image of Muhammad is regarded as blasphemous by many Muslims.

"We are angry — very, very, very angry," said the legislator, Jamila al-Shanty. "No one can say a bad word about our prophet."

The conflict is the latest manifestation of growing tensions between Europe and the Muslim world as the Continent struggles to absorb a fast-expanding Muslim population whose customs and values are often at odds with Europe's secular societies. Islam is Europe's fastest growing religion and is now the second largest religion in most European countries. Racial and religious discrimination against Muslims in Europe's weakest economies adds to the strains.

The trouble began in September in Denmark, when the daily Jyllands-Posten published 12 cartoons lampooning intolerance among Muslims and links to terrorism. A Norwegian magazine published the cartoons again last month, and the issue erupted this week after diplomatic efforts failed to resolve demands by several angry Arab countries that the publications be punished.

The cartoons include one depicting Muhammad with a bomb in place of a turban on his head and another showing him on a cloud in heaven telling an approaching line of smoking suicide bombers, "Stop, stop, we ran out of virgins!"

They have since been reprinted in France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Spain and Hungary. The BBC broadcast them on Thursday.

Most European commentators concede that the cartoons were in poor taste but argue that conservative Muslims must learn to accept Western standards of free speech and the pluralism that those standards protect.

Several accused Muslims of a double standard, noting that media in several Arab countries continue to broadcast or publish references to "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion," a notorious early 20th-century anti-Semitic hoax that presented itself as the Jews' master plan to rule the world.

Many Muslims say the Danish cartoons reinforce a dangerous confusion between Islam and the Islamist terrorism that nearly all Muslims abhor. Dalil Boubakeur, head of France's Muslim Council, called the caricatures a new sign of Europe's growing "Islamophobia."

Saudi Arabia and Syria recalled their ambassadors from Denmark, while the Danish government summoned other foreign envoys in Copenhagen to talks on Friday over the issue, having already explained that it does not control the press.

"We are talking about an issue with fundamental significance to how democracies work," Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen told the Copenhagen daily Politiken.

Jyllands-Posten has received two bomb threats in the past few days, despite having apologized for any hurt feelings about the drawings.

Late Thursday morning, about a dozen gunmen appeared at the European Union offices in Gaza, firing automatic weapons and spray-painting a warning on the outside gate: "Closed until an apology is sent to Muslims." The men handed out a pamphlet warning Denmark, Norway and France that they had 48 hours to apologize.

The office, staffed only by Palestinians at the time, reportedly received a telephone warning that the gunmen were coming, and was quickly closed.

In Nablus, on the West Bank, two masked gunmen kidnapped a German from a hotel, thinking he was French or Danish, Agence France-Presse reported. They turned him over to the police once they realized their mistake.

Leaders of Fatah and Hamas said they did not endorse harming any foreigners in Gaza. All the same, the threat emptied hotels there of Europeans, most of them journalists. The manager of the popular Al Diera Hotel said 12 of his 22 rooms had been cleared out by late afternoon.

France Soir, the only French daily to reprint the cartoons, fired its managing editor late Wednesday as "a strong sign of respect for the beliefs and intimate convictions of every individual," according to a statement from its owner, Raymond Lakah, an Egyptian-born French businessman.

In an editorial defending its decision to publish the cartoons, France Soir asked Thursday what would remain of "the freedom to think, speak, even to come and go," if society adhered to all of the prohibitions of the world's various religions. The result, the newspaper said, would be "the Iran of the mullahs, for example."

Not everyone saw it that way. Afghanistan's president, Hamid Karzai, issued a statement condemning "in the strongest terms" France Soir's publication of the cartoons. "Any insult to the holy prophet (peace be upon him) is an insult to more than one billion Muslims," his statement read.

On Thursday, France's embassy in Algeria, a former colony, issued a statement condemning the publication, saying the French government was "deeply attached to the spirit of tolerance and to respect of religious belief, as we are to the principle of freedom of the press."

"In this light, France condemns all those who hurt individuals in their beliefs or religious convictions," the statement read.

Still, Europeans showed no signs of backing down. Le Monde ran a sketch of a man, presumably Muhammad, made of sentences reading, "I must not draw Muhammad."

Craig S. Smith reported from Paris for this article, and Ian Fisher from Gaza.

* Copyright 2006The New York Times Company



Bin Laden Artwork Now Hanging In New York

Morry Alter
Reporting

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(CBS) NEW YORK Is that who we think it is in that picture?

Our interest in this story was sparked by an angry email sent to us here at WCBSTV.com. The writer wasn't angry at us, but rather about what he'd seen at the current National Black Fine Art Show in the Puck Building. This is the 10th anniversary edition of the show which features galleries from across the country selling the works of America's top African American painters, sculptors, and photographers.

But the writer had big problems with a painting by Harlem artist "Tafa". It depicts an upside down Christ-like figure with a face strongly resembling Osama Bin Laden. The email read in part, "This is outrageous. This is an attack against my religion. How can an artist go so low? Most people are outraged, most Christians."

On the phone with me, the artist declined to do an on-camera interview, telling me the work speaks for itself, but adding, the resemblance to Bin Laden was no accident.

The art show's producer Josh Wainwright, insisted he hadn't even made the Bin Laden connection. "Knowing what you know now would you have barred the painting from being part of your show?" I asked. "Absolutely not," he replied. Wainwright says he's a military veteran and despises Bin Laden, but he added, "I don't think it's anyone's job or vocation to limit the expression of artists."

While some at the show did recognize the Bin Laden face on the Christ body, we found none who were offended. Instead most defended "Tafa" the artist's right to speak his mind. The painting is bordered with hand lettered expressions and names including "mujahadin," "McCarthyism," and "Amadou Diallo," a man killed by New York City police in 1999.

You could take the painting out of circulation, or not, for a mere $12,000 and change. You can see the painting, or not, by visiting the show which runs through Sunday. Daily admission is $15.

(© MMVI, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.)

[Ninjahedge]

Geez. Too many people are taking this too seriously.

Notice how these gunmen do not have enough cajones to be able to protest WITHOUT masks? And what the hell is a protest with guns? That is not a protest, that is a military maneuver.



I am looking at the people that are out there being outraged at the whole thing and one thing strikes me as oddly familiar.

These guys will protest ANYTHING with the same fervor. Everything they object to is met with flag burning, fights, yelling and guns in the air.

So what is really important to these people, and how much of it is told to be important by their "leaders"?

[JMGarcia]

What do you get when people are forced to focus on religious studies in university? Too many good minds worried about the most trivial of things. The following is an actual fatwah issued regarding soccer by a most learned cleric.

In the name of God the merciful and benevolent:
1. International terminology that heretics use, such as "foul," "penalty", "corner," "goal", "out" and others, should be abandoned and not said. Whoever says them should be punished and ejected from the game.

2. Do not call "foul" and stop the game if someone falls and sprains a hand or foot or the ball touches his hand, and do not give a yellow or red card to whoever was responsible for the injury or tackle. Instead, it should be adjudicated according to Sharia rulings concerning broken bones and injuries.

3. Do not follow the heretics, the Jews, the Christians and especially evil America regarding the number of players. Do not play with 11 people. Add to this number or decrease it.

4. Play in your regular clothes or your pyjamas or something like that, but not coloured shorts and numbered T-shirts, because shorts and T-shirts are not Muslim clothing. Rather, they are heretical and western clothing, so beware of imitating their fashion.

5. If you have fulfilled these conditions and intend to play soccer, play to strengthen the body in order better to struggle in the way of God on high and to prepare the body for when it is called to jihad. Soccer is not for passing time or the thrill of so-called victory.

6. Do not play in two halves. Rather, play in one half or three halves in order to completely differentiate yourselves from the heretics, the corrupted and the disobedient.

7. If neither of you beats the other, or "wins", as it is called, and neither puts the leather between the posts, do not add extra time or penalties. Instead leave the field, because winning with extra time and penalty kicks is the pinnacle of imitating heretics and international rules.

8. Young crowds should not gather to watch when you play because if you are there for the sake of sports and strengthening your bodies as you claimed, why would people watch you? You should make them join your physical fitness and jihad preparation, or you should say: "Go proselytise and seek out morally reprehensible acts in the markets and the press and leave us to our physical fitness."

9. You should spit in the face of whoever puts the ball between the posts or uprights and then runs in order to get his friends to follow him and hug him like players in America or France do, and you should punish him, for what is the relationship between celebrating, hugging and kissing and the sports that you are practising?

10. You should use two posts instead of three pieces of wood or steel that you erect in order to put the ball between them, meaning that you should remove the crossbar in order not to imitate the heretics and in order to be entirely distinct from the soccer system's despotic international rules.

11. Do not do what is called "substitution," that is, taking the place of someone who has fallen, because this is a practice of the heretics in America and elsewhere.

[lofter1]

When a basic tenet of one's religion is that no images of the "prophet" should be produced (nevermind that one of Christianity's Top Ten is "no graven images") it is not all that unreasonable that some people go a bit nuts when images of the "prophet" are not only produced but also lampoon the "holy" one.

And while one could argue that drawings / cartoons don't quite fit the definition of "graven" (which seems to relate specifically to sculpted images) the "or any likeness" phrase seems to cover all the bases.

Not to say that the current reaction can't be construed as a bit over-the-top ...

Still ...

Imagine the same cartoons with your "prophet" of choice as the one depicted and see what reaction you have.

(see here: http://wcbstv.com/local/local_story_033162841.html)

http://img.viacomlocalnetworks.com/images_sizedimage_033173800/lg



Exodus 20:
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

[ZippyTheChimp]

The Lord thy God was speaking to the Hebrews, the people with whom he had made a covenant. He wasn't addressing the Egyptians, or any other group.

As I understand it, the depiction of any image of the prophet Muhamad is forbidden by Islamic Law. Islamic Law is binding on Muslims, not on heretics, or their governments and newspapers.

I'm sure there are Christians that are upset about the painting, but so far, the Pope has not mobilized the Swiss Guard and called for a crusade against the Puck Building.

[JMGarcia]

When a basic tenet of one's religion is that no images of the "prophet" should be produced (nevermind that one of Christianity's Top Ten is "no graven images") it is not all that unreasonable that some people go a bit nuts when images of the "prophet" are not only produced but also lampoon the "holy" one........

There's upset, there's outraged, and then there's the threat of violence because of it.

There is no case for moral relatism when violence is involved.

[BrooklynRider]

Apparently any many with long dark hair, a beard and mustache can be said to resemble bin Laden. That article is a real stretch.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Read the article again.

[Ninjahedge]

Apparently any many with long dark hair, a beard and mustache can be said to resemble bin Laden. That article is a real stretch.

The artist himself said the resemblance was not accidental.

I think the best way to protest these things is to simply not pay them any heed. ESPECIALLY if it is the attention they need in order to survive.

I do not think the elephant Manure Virgin Mary would have gotten any attention if the artist had not said it was her and people were outraged, so whatever.

[Marksix]

...upon final approach into King Khaled airport, Saudi Arabia British Airways captains, along with local weather also advised passengers to put their watches back 700 years!

there was a vocal demonstration in London yesterday by radical muslims holding posters such as "another 7/7 is on its way" and "Europe you will pay, your 9/11 is on its way".

Another guy from north London said "The only solution is for those responsible to be killed. In Islam, the one who insults the messenger should be killed."

There was also a little girl of about two years old sporting an Al Qaeda beany hat.

The police did arrest one man. He was not a muslim but was driving his van passed the demonstration and was sufficiently outraged to shout back at the protestors. He was last seen being frogmarched away by a bobby.

Coincidently, Tony Blair tried to pass a law this week which prevented i.e. comedians from making jokes about i.e. Islam and other religions. The bill was to target incitement to religious hatred but the consequence would the likes of Jackie Mason would be arrested for his act. The bill was defeated in the house.

I watched a documentary last week by the distinguished darwin accademic, Richard Dawkins. His (convincing) thesis set out to prove why the world would be better off without religion and in the course of his programme interviewed some of the scariest radical religious bigots immaginable. Many of them where American fundamentalists. It's not just Isalm!

I think he best summed up the evil of religion:- "Evil men do evil things. Good men do good things, but it takes religion to make good men do evil things."


There was also a great quote on the radio this morning from the association of American Cartoon Editors (!) responding to US generals anger at one of their numbers cartoons about them. They said "(the) generals were as good at interpreting cartoons as they were at interpreting intelligence on weapons of mass destruction." I thought that was VERY funny!

Which brings this whole thing to its scariest full circle. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and had no weapons of mass destruction. Iran is ruled by radical muslims and ARE developing the A bomb to use on us infidels but Blair/Bush and the neo-cons have destroyed any chance of a preventative attack on them, a case of crying "wolf".... By supreme irony it will be the Isralis who will take out that threat. A country founded on religous principles with radical religous hatred zealots all of their own.

The more I see of people, the more I like my Cat :)

[lofter1]

Cartoon row: Danish embassy ablaze

CNN
Saturday, February 4, 2006

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/02/04/syria.cartoon.ap/index.html


DAMASCUS, Syria (AP) -- Hundreds of Syrian demonstrators stormed the Danish Embassy in Damascus Saturday and set fire to the building, witnesses said.

The demonstrators were protesting offensive caricatures of Islam's Prophet Mohammed that were first published in a Danish newspaper several months ago.

Witnesses said the demonstrators set fire to the entire building, which also houses the embassies of Chile and Sweden.

Protesters have been staging sit-ins outside the Danish Embassy in downtown Damascus almost daily since the furor over the drawings broke out last week.

Saturday's protest started out peacefully but as anger escalated, protesters broke through police barriers and torched the building, the witnesses said.

The cartoons, first printed in Denmark and then published elsewhere in Europe, have touched a raw nerve in the Arab and Islamic world, in part because Islamic law is interpreted to forbid any depiction of the Prophet Mohammed, favorable or otherwise.

Aggravating the affront was one caricature of Mohammed wearing a turban shaped as a bomb with a burning fuse.

The Danish government has expressed regret for the furor, but refused to become involved, citing freedom of expression.

Rage against caricatures of Islam's revered prophet poured out across the Muslim world on Saturday, with aggrieved believers calling for the execution of those involved, storming European buildings, and setting European flags afire.

In its first official comments on the caricatures, the Vatican, while deploring violent protests, said certain forms of criticism represent an "unacceptable provocation."

"The right to freedom of thought and expression ... cannot entail the right to offend the religious sentiment of believers," the Vatican said in a statement.

The cartoons, first printed in Denmark, and then published elsewhere in Europe, have touched a raw nerve, in part because Islamic law is interpreted to forbid any depictions of the Prophet Mohammed. Aggravating the affront was one caricature of Mohammed wearing a turban shaped as a bomb with a burning fuse.

Muslims in Europe have reacted less passionately than their counterparts in the Mideast and Southeast Asia, but on Saturday, anger in Europe swelled, too, with demonstrators clashing with police in Copenhagen and gathering outside the Danish Embassy in London.

In Munich, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said she understood Muslims' hurt, but denounced violent reactions.

"I can understand that religious feelings of Muslims have been injured and violated," Merkel said at an international security conference," but I also have to make clear that I feel it is unacceptable to see this as legitimizing the use of violence."

But incensed faithful in some parts of the Muslim world had no use for such words.

A leader of the Islamic militant Hamas group, which recently swept Palestinian parliamentary elections, told an Italian newspaper on Saturday that the cartoons were an "unforgivable insult" that should be punished by death.

"We should have killed all those who offend the Prophet and instead here we are, protesting peacefully," Mahmoud Zahar, a top leader of the militant Islamic group that won the January 25 Palestinian elections, told Italian daily Il Giornale.

"We should have killed them, we should have required just punishment for those who respect neither religion nor its holiest symbols," Zahar was quoted as saying.

Hundreds of Palestinians turned out for protests on Saturday. In Gaza City, demonstrators hurled stones at a European Commission building and stormed a German cultural center, smashing windows and doors. Protesters also burned German and Danish flags, and called for a boycott of Danish products.

"Insulting the prophet means insulting every Muslim," blared a loudspeaker car accompanying some 400 demonstrators who marched to the European Commission building.

In the West Bank town of Hebron, about 50 Palestinians marched to the headquarters of the international observer mission there, burned a Danish flag, and demanded a boycott of Danish goods. "We will redeem our prophet, Mohammed, with our blood,' they chanted.

Masked gunmen affiliated with the Fatah Party called on the Palestinian Authority and Muslim nations to recall their diplomatic missions from Denmark until it apologizes.

At least 500 Israeli Arabs gathered peacefully in Nazareth for the first protest against the caricatures on Israeli soil. A procession set off from the As-Salam mosque toward the Basilica of the Annunciation, where Christian tradition says Mary was informed of Jesus' impending birth. Sheik Raed Salah, a radical leader of the Islamic Movement, was to address the crowd later.

"Allah is the only God, and Mohammed is his prophet," loudspeakers blared as the march began.

Leaders of Muslim nations in Asia denounced the caricatures, The prime minister of Malaysia, Abdullah Ahmad Badawi, said the publication of the cartoons showed a "blatant disregard for Islamic sensitivities over the use of such images, which are particularly insulting and forbidden by Islam." But in a written statement, he urged Malaysians to stay calm.

"Let the perpetrators of the insult see the gravity of their own mistakes which only they themselves can and should correct," he said, without elaborating.

In Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim nation, President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono denounced the cartoons as insensitive.

But "as religious people, we should accept the apology extended by the Danish government," he added.

About 500 people rallied Saturday south of Baghdad, some carrying banners urging "honest people all over the world to condemn this act," and demanding an EU apology. The protest was organized by followers of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, who has been among the most outspoken Iraqi clerics on the issue.

Angry demonstrators took to the streets in Denmark and Britain on Saturday, signaling a ratcheting up of tensions among European Muslims.

In Copenhagen, young Muslims clashed briefly with police after they were stopped from boarding a train to go to a demonstration north of the Danish capital. Some of the roughly 300 demonstrators threw rocks and bottles at police but no one was injured, officials said.

At the demonstration later Saturday outside Copenhagen, right-wing extremists plan to protest the recent burning of Danish flags -- a gathering that could inflame tensions with the Muslims.

Although many of Denmark's 200,000 Muslims were deeply offended by the cartoons, mass demonstrations have not broken out.

In London, several hundred demonstrators gathered under heavy police security outside Denmark's embassy, shouting slogans to protest the publication of the drawings.

CNN has chosen to not show the cartoons out of respect for Islam.

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press (http://www.cnn.com/interactive_legal.html#AP).

[Ninjahedge]

...demonstrators set fire to the entire building, which also houses the embassies of Chile and Sweden...

...demonstrators hurled stones at a European Commission building and stormed a German cultural center...


Bigoted racist bastards.


When you do not have, and you hate those that do, you will use any reason to put your anger into action whether it be from a military action or a cartoon depiction.


These few that are storming all over do NOT represent the Muslim majority, but they are the ones doing the most damage.

It is obvious that these kind of things should not be tolerated. A protest is not one in which you call for the DEATH of those you are protesting (you can curse someone out till you are blue in the face and it is allowed by law. Threaten to kill them and it has to be taken in a different light).

[Marksix]

"Threaten to kill them and it has to be taken in a different light"

amen to that


praise the lord and pass the ammunition - lol

[TLOZ Link5]

Looks like the extremists have proven that they don't need to be satirized in political cartoons, because they're already caricatures of themselves.

[lofter1]

Islamic Society of Denmark Used Fake Cartoons to Create Story!

THIS WHOLE DANISH CARTOON CONTROVERSY WAS MADE UP BY THE "ISLAMIC SOCIETY OF DENMARK" WHO SPREAD THE FAKE CARTOONS ON THEIR TRIP TO THE MIDDLE EAST!

Gateway Pundit (http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/)
Observations of the World from the Heart of Jesusland!
Thursday, February 02, 2006

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/02/islamic-society-of-denmark-used-fake.html


The leader of the group is a radical Islamist known for supporting the Anti-Western Islamist struggle!

The organisation Islamic Society in Denmark toured the Middle-East to create awareness about the cartoons, bringing 3 additional images (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons), which HAD NEVER been published in any media source. Evidently, the originals were not offensive enough for the trip so they had to add these three:

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7050/620/320/mo%20small.0.jpg (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7050/620/1600/mo%20small.0.jpg)
The first of the three
additional pictures, which
are of poor quality,
shows Muhammad as a pedophile demon.* (http://ekstrabladet.dk/grafik/nettet/tegninger40.jpg)


http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7050/620/320/tegninger38.jpg (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7050/620/1600/tegninger38.jpg)
The second shows Muhammed with a pig snout.* (http://ekstrabladet.dk/grafik/nettet/tegninger38.jpg)

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7050/620/320/DOG.jpg (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7050/620/1600/DOG.jpg)
The third depicts
a praying Muslim being raped by a dog (http://ekstrabladet.dk/grafik/nettet/tegninger39.jpg)*.


BBC World also aired a story showing one of the three non-published images, on 2006-01-30, and wrongly claimed it had been published in Jyllands-Posten.

On the tour, the group claimed to represent 21 different Muslim organisations in Denmark, although many of these groups have disclaimed any connection.

Akhmad Akkari, spokesman of the Danish Muslim organisations which organised the tour, explained that the three drawings had been added to "give an insight in how hateful the atmosphere in Denmark is towards Muslims."

Akkari claimed he does not know the origin of the three pictures. He said they had been sent anonymously to Danish Muslims. However, when Ekstra Bladet asked if it could talk to these Muslims, Akkari refused to reveal their identity. These images had however never been published in Jyllands-Posten.

The society also allegedly exaggerated its membership, claiming to represent all of Denmark's 200,000 Muslims, when the actual number of adherents is believed to be fewer than 15,000. [30]. 500-1000 people attend their Friday prayer gathering each week[31].

Imam Ahmad Abu Ladan (http://www.dr.dk/nyheder/indland/article.jhtml?articleID=166936) is involved in an international group of Muslims who are known for supporting the anti-Western Islamist struggle (http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/07/camel-economics.html) of the school of global Jihad.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7050/620/320/Ahmad_Abu_Laban__ima_26568a.jpg (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7050/620/1600/Ahmad_Abu_Laban__ima_26568a.jpg)

Imam Ahmad Abu Ladan (http://www.dr.dk/nyheder/fremmedsprog/English/article.jhtml?articleID=220097) also tried to block the re-election of the right-wing government in Denmark in the previous election.

Imam Ahmad Abu Laban, the leader of the organisation stated in Al Jazeera that Muslims should boycott Denmark, despite giving contradictory assurances to Western media. Ahmad Abu Laban, previously declared unwelcome in several Arab states, was one of the front figures on the tour [citation needed].

Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen said of Muslims criticising the country in the Arab territories: "I am speechless that those people, whom we have given the right to live in Denmark and where they freely have chosen to stay, are now touring Arab countries and inciting antipathy towards Denmark and the Danish people"[33].

Further misinformation spread among Arab Muslims include claims that Jyllands-Posten is a government-owned newspaper (it is privately owned) - spokesman for the Danish delegation Muhammed al Samha, and delegation member Ahmed al-Harbi said in the Egyptian newspaper al-Ahram: "Jyllands-Posten, a newspaper belonging to the ruling Danish party - an extreme right-wing party - [was] publishing drawings and sketches of the prophet Muhammad."

* I shrank up the outrageous and fake cartoons from original size. I do not intend to offend.

The Brussels Journal (http://www.brusselsjournal.com/comment/reply/668) has been following the story closely from Europe.
Shawn Wasson (http://bareknucklepolitics.com/?p=767)notices the selective outrage.
The Astute Blogger (http://astuteblogger.blogspot.com/2006/02/danish-imam-caught-lying-to-euro-media.html) has more on Abu Ladan lying to the media!
Counterterrorism Blog (http://counterterror.typepad.com/the_counterterrorism_blog/2006/02/fabricated_cart.html) has more on Abu Laden's mideast stunts, today.
Zombietime (http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/) has the largest collection of Muhammad pictures on the net.
And, Pajamas Media (http://pajamasmedia.com/2006/02/_islamic_society_of_denmark_us.php) is carrying the story from a variety of blog perspectives.
Michelle Malkin (http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004440.htm) has a huge roundup on the two-faced American media.
Belmont Club (http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/2006/02/interesting-times.html) has thoughtful analysis on what this all means.

The mainstream news (http://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/Media_Watch)is so out of touch with this story.

Previously:
Mideast Bloggers Join the Boycott of the Boycott (http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/02/mideast-bloggers-join-boycott-of.html)
Muhammad's Pre-Danish Cartoon Career (http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/02/muhammads-pre-danish-cartoon-career.html)

Update: (Friday AM) The story has legs (http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/02/muslim-world-rages-on-over-4-month-old.html) and is running and threatening to attack.

More Updates:
Mideast Bloggers Join the Boycott of the Boycott (http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/02/mideast-bloggers-join-boycott-of.html)
Muhammad's Pre-Danish Cartoon Career (http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/02/muhammads-pre-danish-cartoon-career.html)
Islamic Society of Denmark Used Fake Cartoons to Create Story! (http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/02/islamic-society-of-denmark-used-fake.html)
Muslim World Rages On Over (4 month old & fake) Danish Cartoons (http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/02/muslim-world-rages-on-over-4-month-old.html)
Muslims Rage, Donkeys Abused (http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/02/muslims-rage-donkeys-abused.html)
Danish Imam Who Faked Cartoons, Linked to Terror, Cheered 9-11 (http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/02/danish-imam-who-faked-cartoons-linked.html)


posted by Gateway Pundit

[Marksix]

Islamic Society of Denmark Used Fake Cartoons to Create Story!




Thank you for that Lofter. It really goes to show how easily we ALL can be manipulated.

[Comelade]

drawing of plantu in the newspaper "le monde"

http://www.plantu.net/dessin/dessin.jpg

the portrait was made with the following sentence "I should not draw mahomet".

Great drawing of plantu


(c) http://www.plantu.net/

[ZippyTheChimp]

February 6, 2006

Beirut Mob Burns Danish Mission Over Cartoons

By KATHERINE ZOEPF and HASSAN M. FATTAH

BEIRUT, Lebanon, Feb. 5 — Protesters angry over Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad clashed with Lebanese security forces on Sunday, setting a building housing the Danish Mission on fire and attacking a nearby church.

The sectarian tone of the violence in the predominantly Christian Achrafieh section of East Beirut on Sunday raised fears of deepening divisions in Lebanon a year after a former prime minister, Rafik Hariri, was assassinated, setting off political crises in Syria and Lebanon.

An early morning march through downtown Beirut soon exploded into violence, when a breakaway crowd surged toward a high-rise building that houses the Austrian and Danish Missions, chanting obscene anti-Danish slogans in Arabic and vandalizing cars, office buildings and a Maronite Catholic church nearby. Other protesters burned Danish flags and flags bearing images of the cross.

Lebanese security forces fired tear gas to disperse the crowd, but a group managed to make its way to the building, breaking windows and setting it on fire. The fire quickly spread through the building, and witnesses said they saw people jumping out of windows to escape the flames. Reuters reported that one person had died. A Dutch news photographer at the scene was beaten when several demonstrators mistook him for being Danish.

Demonstrators also attacked police officers with stones and set fire to several fire engines, witnesses said. Lebanese security forces regained control over the area within two hours, using water cannons and bullets fired over protesters' heads. The Danish Foreign Ministry on Sunday urged Danes to leave Lebanon. On Saturday, protesters set fire to the Danish and Swedish Missions in Damascus, Syria.

"This was a worst-case scenario, a nightmare scenario," said Thomas May, the Danish consul general in Dubai. "I don't think anyone in their wildest imagination would have expected an escalation like what we have seen."

Late on Sunday, the Lebanese interior minister, Hassan al-Sabaa, offered to resign over the way the episode was handled. The Interior Ministry said that 21 members of the country's internal security forces had been injured, and a source in the state security service, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to provide the information, said that 174 people had been arrested and that most of them were not Lebanese.

Lebanese Muslim leaders quickly condemned the attacks and appealed for calm. Lebanon's grand mufti, Muhammad Rashid Kabbani, denounced the violence, saying there were infiltrators among the protesters trying to "harm the stability of Lebanon."

Muhammad Khalil, an Islamic teacher from Akkar, in northern Lebanon, and an organizer of the march, said: "The burning of buildings and the destruction of cars is unacceptable. This was supposed to be a peaceful demonstration, but people who love God and Muhammad are becoming overwhelmed by their anger."

On Sunday night, several Lebanese Christian political parties, including the Phalangists, the Aounists and the Lebanese Forces, held an unusual counterdemonstration near the Maronite church that was damaged during the earlier protest. "We are here to say that nobody can get the Christians out of Lebanon," said Mark Mahfouz, 34, a member of the Lebanese Forces. Prime Minister Fuad Saniora also urged calm, declaring that "this is absolutely not the way we express our opinions."

But many Lebanese also spoke of unity, the memory of the 15-year sectarian civil war still fresh in many minds. At the counterdemonstration, a Christian woman who would give her name only as Rita and who lives near the Danish Mission said men leaving the demonstration had entered the bakery where she worked.

"They were apologizing," she said, and saying, " 'We didn't mean for this to be a violent demonstration. We only wanted to say that we stand behind the name of Muhammad. But we believe that we are all Lebanese together.' "

Katherine Zoepf reported from Beirut for this article, and Hassan M. Fattah from Safaga, Egypt. Lina Sinjab contributed reporting from Damascus.

* Copyright 2006The New York Times Company

[Marksix]

Islamic Society of Denmark Used Fake Cartoons to Create Story!



thanks again for bringing this background to my attention. I looked into the background even further and confirmed some of the more credible sources and drew them all to the attention of out local BBC radio station who were holding a long debate into these events.

I just thought you'd like to know that they quoted your thread extensively to 2 million listeners on BBC radio Merseyside!

[Ninjahedge]

So what we are seeing here is a small group of political revolutionaries seeking to disrupt the status quo to gain political support and power through the use and exploitation cultural and theological tensions in the world.


F'n vultures.

[lofter1]

I just thought you'd like to know that they quoted your thread extensively to 2 million listeners on BBC radio Merseyside!
excellent!

Interesting post here ...


http://purveyor.blogspot.com/2006/02/politics-we-regret-to-inform-you.html

Feb. 4, 2006

POLITICS: We regret to inform you...

You are Jewish and so you are marked for death.

You are Christian and so you are marked for death.

You are an infidel or atheist and so you are marked for death.

You are American and so you are marked for death.

You are Western European and so you are marked for death.

You are Australian and so you are marked for death.

You are a homosexual and so you are marked for death.

You are Salman Rushdie and so you are marked for death.

You are a Danish cartoonist and so you are marked for death.

You are a member of the European press who has reproduced offensive Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad and so (you guessed it) you are marked for death.

You are the rare and brave Muslim who has vocalized serious reservations about coreligionists who demonize Jews and the West, derogate other religions, praise anger as the noblest of all emotions, position victimhood as the ultimate dignity, choose violence as the tactic of first resort, and blame others for all the ills of society, and so you, too, are marked for death.

The good news?

You are a non-Western Muslim woman, so you’re really lucky (http://www.pluto.no/doogie/Ga/blekka/ga173/burka.jpg).

[ZippyTheChimp]

You are American and so you are marked for death Strange, there hasn't been as much of this as usual. I would at least have expected something like the satirical bin Laden videos on David Letterman, where a message about holiday sales at Circuit City is followed by the afterthought, "Oh yes, and death to America."

[lofter1]

Iranian paper launches Holocaust cartoon competition

By Simon Freeman and agencies
Times Online
February 06, 2006

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2027749,00.html#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=World

http://images.thetimes.co.uk/images/trans.gifIran’s biggest-selling newspaper has waded into the Muhammad controversy by launching a competition to find the 12 "best" cartoons about the Holocaust.

Farid Mortazavi, graphics editor for Tehran's Hamshahri newspaper, said that the deliberately inflammatory contest would test out how committed Europeans were to the concept of freedom of expression.

"The Western papers printed these sacrilegious cartoons on the pretext of freedom of expression, so let’s see if they mean what they say and also print these Holocaust cartoons," he said.

Karen Pollock, chief executive of the Holocaust Educational Trust, said that victims of the Holocaust and their families were growing used to insults from Iran. "It's just very sad," she told Times Online.

Iran’s regime is supportive of Holocaust revisionist historians, who maintain that the slaughter of Europe’s Jews during the Second World War was invented or exaggerated to justify the creation of Israel on Palestinian territory.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad courted international denunciation recently when he argued for Israel to be "wiped off the map". The President's vitriolic attacks on Israel have further soured relations with the West, already at loggerheads over the republic's nuclear research programme.

Mr Mortazavi said that tomorrow's edition of the paper would invite cartoonists to enter the competition, with gold coins as prizes for the 12 winning artists -- the same number of cartoons that appeared in the conservative Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten lighting the touchpaper for fury which has swept around the Islamic world.

Last week the Iranian Foreign Ministry invited Tony Blair to Tehran to take part in a planned conference on the Holocaust. Mr Blair said that such a conference was "shocking, ridiculous, stupid". The Prime Minister responded by inviting Mr Ahmadinejad to witness the evidence of the Holocaust in the countries of Europe.

Public protests against the publication of the cartoons have been relatively calm in Iran, although a crowd of about 200 smashed the windows of the Austrian Embassy in Tehran today.

The protesters, chanting "God is Greatest" and "Europe, Europe, shame on you", smashed all the diplomatic mission’s windows with stones and then tried to hurl petrol bombs inside.

Iran has withdrawn its ambassador to Denmark and has said it plans to review trade ties with all countries where the cartoons were published.

Mr Ahmadinejad has criticised the argument of freedom of speech employed by European newspapers to justify publication of the cartoons.

"If your newspapers are free why do not they publish anything about the innocence of the Palestinians and protest against the crimes committed by the Zionists?" the Mehr news agency quoted him as saying.

Copyright 2006 (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,549,00.html)Times Newspapers Ltd.

http://images.thetimes.co.uk/images/trans.gif

[Jasonik]

http://www.filibustercartoons.com/comics/20060204.gif (http://www.filibustercartoons.com/)

See also Rantings of a Sandmonkey (blog) (http://egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com/2006/02/der-standard-interview.html#links) for the thoughts of "an extremely cynical, snarky, pro-US, secular, libertarian, disgruntled sandmonkey."

[Ninjahedge]

Gee, so moaking pictures of a dead prophet about the violent nature of his followers is the same as making cartoons about death and dismemberment.


He is allowed to do whatever he wants, but it will do the world a favor if noone paid any attension to him.



"I'm sorry, you had a contest for what? That's nice dear, now go play with your Uranium."

[NoyokA]

I find it really ironic. Arabs are protesting cartoons which depict them as being violent, by low and behold, violence....

Genesis 16-12.

[Marksix]

You are a non-Western Muslim woman, so you’re really lucky (http://www.pluto.no/doogie/Ga/blekka/ga173/burka.jpg).


..hey - who's the hot babe holding the bread. you got her number Lofter?

[ablarc]

http://66.230.220.70/images/post/muslims/222.jpg

These folks need to learn to laugh.

.

[MrSpice]

ablarc: I don't think these folks can learn anything at this point. They are beyond repair.

[ablarc]

^ Check out the Tunisia thread: http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8213

[lofter1]

..hey - who's the hot babe holding the bread. you got her number Lofter?
sorry, it's unlisted ...

[lofter1]

NATO Troops Fire on Afghan Attackers

By DANIEL COONEY, Associated Press Writer
February 7, 2006

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060207/ap_on_re_mi_ea/prophet_drawings;_ylt=AkVJuMLis3EK81nmEHpfd8as0NUE ;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

KABUL, Afghanistan - NATO (http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=NATO) peacekeepers exchanged fire with protesters who attacked their base Tuesday in the second straight day of violent demonstrations in Afghanistan (http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=Afghanistan) over the publication of caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad, Afghan officials said. One demonstrator was killed and dozens wounded.

In neighboring Pakistan, 5,000 people chanting "Hang the man who insulted the prophet" burned effigies of one cartoonist and Denmark's prime minister.
And a prominent Iranian newspaper said it was going to hold a competition for cartoons on the Holocaust in reaction to European newspapers publishing the prophet drawings.

Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, said the West's publication of the Prophet Muhammad cartoons was an Israeli conspiracy motivated by anger over the victory of the militant Hamas group in the Palestinian elections last month. "The West condemns any denial of the Jewish holocaust, but it permits the insult of Islamic sanctities," Khamenei said.

The NATO troops, most of them Norwegian, fired on hundreds of protesters outside the base in Maymana after the demonstrators shot at them and threw grenades, said provincial Gov. Mohammed Latif. The protesters also burned an armored vehicle, a U.N. car and guard posts, prompting NATO peacekeepers to rush British reinforcements to the city.

Maymana Hospital said one protester was shot dead and six were wounded, while some 50 others were hurt by tear gas the peacekeepers used to disperse the demonstrators.

One Norwegian soldier was injured by a splinter from a grenade, while another was hurt by a flying rock. Two Finnish soldiers were also hurt, Sverre Diesen, the Norwegian military commander, told reporters in Oslo.

Diesen said two American A-10 attack aircraft were on their way to the city and that a German C-130 transport plane was on standby in case some troops needed to evacuated.

U.N. spokesman Adrian Edwards said the world body's nonessential staff in Maymana were being driven from the city to an undisclosed location for security reasons.

The cartoons were first published by a Danish newspaper in September, then reprinted by a Norwegian newspaper last month, setting off violent protests against the two countries across the Muslim world. The cartoons have subsequently been reprinted in other media, mostly in Europe.

The drawings — including one depicting the prophet wearing a turban shaped as a bomb — have touched a raw nerve in part because Islam is interpreted to forbid any illustrations of the Prophet Muhammad for fear they could lead to idolatry.

In the Afghan capital of Kabul, police used batons to beat stone-throwing protesters outside the Danish diplomatic mission office and near the offices of the World Bank on Tuesday. An Associated Press reporter saw police arrest several people, many of whom were injured.

Security had already been tightened in Kabul, home to some 3,000 foreign diplomats, aid workers and others. Police have set up barricades and peacekeepers have been on constant patrol.

More than 3,000 protesters threw stones at government buildings and an Italian peacekeeping base in the western city of Herat, but no one was injured, said a witness, Faridoon Pooyaa. Provincial administrator Asiluddin Jami said police fired warning shots to prevent the demonstrators from entering the buildings and the base.

About 5,000 people clashed with police in Pulikhumri town, north of Kabul, said Sayed Afandi, a police commander. There were no reports of injuries.
Police in about half a dozen other towns and cities across Afghanistan reported thousands of people protesting.

Demonstrations have been held across Afghanistan since last week, with the size of the crowds progressively swelling. On Monday, four people were killed and at least 19 hurt during clashes, including one outside Bagram, the main U.S. military base.

The protest in the northwestern Pakistani city of Peshawar was the largest to date in that Muslim country against the prophet drawings. There were no reports of violence.

Chief Minister Akram Durrani, the province's top elected official who led the rally, demanded the cartoonists "be punished like a terrorist."

"Islam is a religion of peace. It insists that all other religions and faiths should be respected," he told the crowd. "Nobody has the right to insult Islam and hurt the feelings of Muslims."

The Iranian newspaper Hamshahri invited foreign cartoonists to enter its Holocaust cartoon competition, which it said would be launched on Feb. 13.
The newspaper is owned by the Tehran Municipality, which is dominated by allies of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who is well known for his opposition to Israel.

Last year, Ahmadinejad provoked outcries when he said on separate occasions that Israel should be "wiped off the map" and the Holocaust was a "myth."

Elsewhere, China criticized newspapers for publishing the cartoons and appealed for calm among outraged Muslims. Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Kong Quan said publishing the cartoons "runs counter to the principle that different religions and civilizations should respect each other and live together in peace and harmony."

Danish citizens were also advised to leave Indonesia, where rowdy protests were held in at least four cities Tuesday. Danish missions, which have been repeatedly targeted by protesters, have been shut because of security concerns, said Niels Erik Anderson, the country's ambassador to Indonesia.

Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer said his government had temporarily closed diplomatic missions in Palestinian territories — where it shares a building with the Danish mission. He warned his citizens to be wary if traveling to the Middle East.

Media in both Australia and New Zealand have also published the images.


Copyright © 2006 The Associated Press

[BrooklynRider]

Well, the same Danish newspaper declined in the past to publish a cartoon of Jesus, citing the negative reaction of Christian readers.

This seems more like a direct and purposeful provocation. Perhaps in response the the election of Hamas in Palestine? Perhaps in response to the Islamic Republic of Iran?

The reaction of muslims around the world has very little to do with the cartoon. They are reacting, perhaps, to the west meddling in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan. Reacting to the indiscriminate killing of civilians in their countries? Reacting to World Bank and IMF policies that extorted perpetual rights to natural resources as payment for bad debt and foreign aid.

No doubt it is a dangerous and volatile situation. Let's see how long before the west, led by Bush, exploit it for corporate gain. It is really no surprise to see reactions calling them "violent" coming from people living in a country that has been bombing the world - the third world and arab world - for decades. It seems to willfully ignore that America is the most violence prone country on earth in this century, launching unprovoked, pre-emptive war. Those chickens will come home to roost sooner or later.

[JMGarcia]

This proves a couple of things to me.

1. Islamic extremists will go to any length to find something to be angry about. Anything but the real reason for their anger which is their own cultural failure, the stifling oppressiveness of their religion and the rigidity of their thought process.

2. There is simply so dealing with islamic extremists. The will find any excuse for a fight. Although I am sure we all wish it were different and we have all been brought up since birth to believe there is always a peaceful solution to conflict, I don't believe it is going to be possible with islamic extremism.

Ultimately these idiots will fail. Their religious ideology offers nothing to anyone but anger and false victimhood. Its going nowhere but sadly we are all going to have to deal with the carnage of them involving the world in there spiral down the toilet.

[ZippyTheChimp]

This seems more like a direct and purposeful provocation. Perhaps in response the the election of Hamas in Palestine?The cartoons were first published in the Danish newspaper months before the Palestinian elections. Many groups, even the Anti Defamation League, characterized them as distasteful and offensive.

The issue was resurrected when the Islamic Society of Denmark distributed the photos, along with three fakes, giving as an explanation:

to "give an insight in how hateful the atmosphere in Denmark is towards Muslims."

[Jasonik]

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/2424/notprophet1ro.jpg

[ablarc]

jasonik, aren't you afraid someone will issue a fatwah on your head?

[ablarc]

More events to blame on "the most violence pronce country on earth in this century":


Four die in fresh cartoon protests

By Robert Birsel

KABUL (Reuters) - Afghan police shot dead four people protesting on Tuesday against cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad that have unleashed waves of rage and soul-searching across the Muslim world and Europe.

Tens of thousands of Muslims demonstrated in the Middle East, Asia and Africa over the drawings, first published in Denmark, then Norway and then several other European countries. Some Muslim leaders urged restraint.

In Iran, locked in a nuclear stand-off with the West, a crowd pelted the Danish embassy with petrol bombs and stones for a second day. Protesters hurled a petrol bomb and broke windows at Norway's mission.

The 12 cartoonists whose work touched off the firestorm were reported to be in hiding, frightened, and under police guard. Iran's best-selling newspaper launched a competition to find the best Holocaust cartoon.

Danish Foreign Minister Per Stig Moeller called his Iranian counterpart "and demanded in clear terms that Iran does all it can to protect the embassy and Danish lives," a spokesman said. Tehran has cut trade ties with Denmark.

Afghan crowds attacked a base of NATO Norwegian troops with guns and grenades and police opened fire, bringing the death toll in protests against the cartoons to nine.

F-16 warplanes flew overhead in a show of force while the Norwegians fired tear gas, rubber bullets and warning shots, managing to restore order by early evening.

After rioters set Danish missions ablaze in Syria and Lebanon at the weekend, the

European Union presidency issued a strongly-worded warning to 19 countries across the Middle East that they were obliged to protect EU missions.

Iran's ambassador to Vienna said an attack on Austria's embassy in Tehran on Monday was directed at "the EU presidency" rather than Austria itself, current holder of the presidency.

FANNING FLAMES

Accusing "radicals, extremists and fanatics" of fanning the flames of Muslim wrath to "push forward their own agenda," Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen repeated a call for dialogue with offended Muslims.

U.S. President George W. Bush called him to express support and solidarity, Rasmussen said. The White House said both leaders "reiterated the importance of tolerance and respect for religions of all faith and freedom of the press."

Depicting the Prophet is prohibited by Islam. Moderate Muslims, while condemning the cartoons, have expressed fears radicals are hijacking debate over the boundary between media freedom and religious respect.

Militants in Iraq have called for the seizure and killing of Danes and the boycott of Danish goods over the cartoons, one of which depicts Mohammad wearing a turban resembling a bomb with a burning fuse.

In London, protesters have brandished placards demanding the beheading of those who insulted Islam. One dressed as a suicide bomber but later apologized.

Copies of a British student paper which reproduced one of the cartoons were hastily shredded and the editor suspended from a student union. A French court however refused to order the confiscation of a magazine which planned to print the images.

"ALLIANCE OF CIVILISATIONS"

Echoing calls for calm by leaders, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said: "I urge all who have authority or influence in different communities ... to engage in dialogue and build a true alliance of civilizations, founded on mutual respect."

Further protests erupted on Tuesday in Pakistan, Egypt, Yemen, Djibouti, Gaza and Azerbaijan.

At least 10,000 people marched in the Bangladeshi capital and tens of thousands turned out in Niger's capital Niamey to vent their anger. State assembly members in mostly Muslim Kano, northern Nigeria, burned Danish flags.

Croatia became the latest country where a newspaper printed the drawings. The cartoons have appeared in Australia, Bulgaria, Denmark, France, Fiji, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Jordan, Malaysia, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, South Africa, Spain, Switzerland, United States, Ukraine and Yemen.

Iran, which has withdrawn its ambassador from Denmark, said the cartoons "launched an anti-Islamic and Islamophobic current which will be answered."

A radical Muslim group in Belgium put on its Web site a cartoon of Adolf Hitler in bed with Anne Frank, a Jewish girl who wrote a wartime diary of hiding from Nazi persecution.

Saudi Arabia's Okaz newspaper rejected violence:
"Violence, spreading chaos and destroying facilities ... only distorts Islam's image, especially after our enemies have tried to label us with so many accusations," it said.

Some Danish Muslims agreed. "Fire and stones are taking things too far," said Copenhagen barber Farzan Khatami.

Denmark's Jyllands-Posten daily has apologized for the cartoons, first published last September. The Danish government has refused to do so, saying it is the paper's responsibility.

[Jasonik]

jasonik, aren't you afraid someone will issue a fatwah on your head?
No, it's clearly labled. (http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_art.asp?recview=true&id=13928&coll_keywords=prophet&coll_accession=&coll_name=&coll_artist=&coll_place=&coll_medium=&coll_culture=&coll_classification=&coll_credit=&coll_provenance=&coll_location=&coll_has_images=&coll_on_view=&coll_sort=0&coll_sort_order=0&coll_package=0&coll_start=1)

"If the spectator finds that my paintings are a kind of defiance of 'common sense', he realises something obvious. I want nevertheless to add that for me the world is a defiance of common sense." René Magritte.

[BrooklynRider]

...Afghan crowds attacked a base of NATO Norwegian troops with guns and grenades and police opened fire, bringing the death toll in protests against the cartoons to nine.

F-16 warplanes flew overhead in a show of force while the Norwegians fired tear gas, rubber bullets and warning shots, managing to restore order by early evening....

If I recall correctly, George W. Bush declared democracy restored, alive and well in Afghanistan and said the elections last year were a great success. Harmid Karzai is their new president. So, what exactly are troops of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization doing in this landlocked mountainous country in Asia? For a bunch of guys on camels who were "bombed back to the stone age" they appear to be some sort of threat. Or, are these troops protecting the planned Unocal pipeline route through the country and protecting Halliburton contractors building permanent American air bases? It is very interesting that in Afghanistan, a foreign and sovreign country, "F-16 warplanes flew overhead in a show of force". The F-16s were not Afghanistani and the show of force against these crazy people rioting for no reason were of an occupation force that has shown now sign of leaving.

It is very convenient for the whole ordeal to portrayed as riot over a cartoon. Our troops are in Muslim Afghanistan. Our troops are in Muslim Iraq. Our troops are in Muslim Pakistan. We are threatening Muslim Iran. American oil companies are exploiting people in Muslim Indonesia. We repeatedly side with Israel over Muslim Palestinians. We are beating and humiliating Muslims in foreign prisons. We are holding Muslims indefinitely at Guantanamo Bay.

Yes, yes, it is ALL about a cartoon.

Maybe is we sent relief to these countries instead of bombs there'd be a different reaction.

Do you really believe everything you see and read? Think there's no deception and alterior motives?

*Media outlets ignored dispute over Specter's refusal to swear in Gonzales
*Media largely ignored Fitzgerald revelation that White House may have destroyed emails
*Chris Matthews falsely claimed that Bush's 2004 comment denying warrantless wiretaps was "pre-9-11"
*NY Times reprinted defense of Bush wiretapping, ignored evidence that program monitored Americans with no terror ties
*O'Reilly falsely claimed that FISA does not address "military matters," only criminal
*Failing to note Rockefeller's letter to Cheney, Herald Tribune, NY Times website reported only that Democrats "say" they expressed concerns over domestic spying
*Woodward's definition of "journalism"? Reporting Bush administration falsehoods as "their point of view"
*Tim Russert selectively cited new NBC poll to back up assertion that Americans, despite concerns, agree with Bush on domestic spying

I'm no apologist for violence, but, to think that this just came out of the blue, with no provocation or reason is silly. In my opinion, the reaction that calls these people "animals" is precisely what the western world wants to see as they beat the drums of war for Iran. If these people are crazed and inhuman, no one will object when we bomb the hell out of them.

[MrSpice]

This proves a couple of things to me.

1. Islamic extremists will go to any length to find something to be angry about. Anything but the real reason for their anger which is their own cultural failure, the stifling oppressiveness of their religion and the rigidity of their thought process.

2. There is simply so dealing with islamic extremists. The will find any excuse for a fight. Although I am sure we all wish it were different and we have all been brought up since birth to believe there is always a peaceful solution to conflict, I don't believe it is going to be possible with islamic extremism.

Ultimately these idiots will fail. Their religious ideology offers nothing to anyone but anger and false victimhood. Its going nowhere but sadly we are all going to have to deal with the carnage of them involving the world in there spiral down the toilet.

I agree.

[Marksix]

If I recall correctly, George W. Bush declared democracy restored, alive and well in Afghanistan and said the elections last year were a great success. Harmid Karzai is their new president. So, what exactly are troops of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization doing in this landlocked mountainous country in Asia? For a bunch of guys on camels who were "bombed back to the stone age" they appear to be some sort of threat. Or, are these troops protecting the planned Unocal pipeline route through the country and protecting Halliburton contractors building permanent American air bases? It is very interesting that in Afghanistan, a foreign and sovreign country, "F-16 warplanes flew overhead in a show of force". The F-16s were not Afghanistani and the show of force against these crazy people rioting for no reason were of an occupation force that has shown now sign of leaving.

It is very convenient for the whole ordeal to portrayed as riot over a cartoon. Our troops are in Muslim Afghanistan. Our troops are in Muslim Iraq. Our troops are in Muslim Pakistan. We are threatening Muslim Iran. American oil companies are exploiting people in Muslim Indonesia. We repeatedly side with Israel over Muslim Palestinians. We are beating and humiliating Muslims in foreign prisons. We are holding Muslims indefinitely at Guantanamo Bay.

Yes, yes, it is ALL about a cartoon.

Maybe is we sent relief to these countries instead of bombs there'd be a different reaction.

Do you really believe everything you see and read? Think there's no deception and alterior motives?

*Media outlets ignored dispute over Specter's refusal to swear in Gonzales
*Media largely ignored Fitzgerald revelation that White House may have destroyed emails
*Chris Matthews falsely claimed that Bush's 2004 comment denying warrantless wiretaps was "pre-9-11"
*NY Times reprinted defense of Bush wiretapping, ignored evidence that program monitored Americans with no terror ties
*O'Reilly falsely claimed that FISA does not address "military matters," only criminal
*Failing to note Rockefeller's letter to Cheney, Herald Tribune, NY Times website reported only that Democrats "say" they expressed concerns over domestic spying
*Woodward's definition of "journalism"? Reporting Bush administration falsehoods as "their point of view"
*Tim Russert selectively cited new NBC poll to back up assertion that Americans, despite concerns, agree with Bush on domestic spying

I'm no apologist for violence, but, to think that this just came out of the blue, with no provocation or reason is silly. In my opinion, the reaction that calls these people "animals" is precisely what the western world wants to see as they beat the drums of war for Iran. If these people are crazed and inhuman, no one will object when we bomb the hell out of them.


I can't talk about your domestic points as I'm so far away but the anti-Islamic world seem valid and would find much sympathy here in the UK. It ought to be borne in mind that none of the "exploitation" by the west could occur without the co-operation of what passes for the idigenous governments in these countries. In short, they have let themselves down to some extent by allowing themselves to be ruled by such people; the solution is in their own hands.

This week, here inthe NW UK a group of Afghan farmers who grow opium were brought over to meet a bunch of heroin addicts to see the effects of what they grow actually are on people. It was clear the the farmers and addicts situataions were equally desperate. It served as a good analogy for "ordinary" western people and their "eastern" muslim equivalents.

Having said that, the doctrine of the radical Islamist organisations seems to be to impose an undemocratic, radical theocracy. As this thread has made plain, the cartoons were used as a tool to create conflict for nefarious purposes. Perhaps they were a catalyst but I think its unfiar to blame the "west" for the failings of the "east" in all instances. They must look to themselves and their wn failings as must we.

As for Afghanistan,it has always been the subject/victim of global politics. It is called "The Great Game" and historically goes back to the days when Imperial Russia threatened to annex India using Afghanistan as a corridor to the sub continent. The British Army were one af many who were routed several times from that country and no doubt will be again. The lessons of history are never learned by our "leaders".

[Marksix]

Us British have been at this far longer than you Americans. Consequently there is a wealth of great literature which express the relationship, non perhaps more widely know than Kiplings "The Ballad of East & West".

Many use the first line,taken out of context to justify their own devisive position when in fact, the poem says just the opposite.

Anyway, the popem was written by Kipling in the mid 19'th century when stationed on the north west frontier between India and Afghanistan. One may say "plus ca change" but for me I find it enlightening. Read it all and take from it what you wish:-

The Ballad of East and West
1889
Rudyard Kipling

OH, EAST is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God’s great Judgment Seat;
But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
When two strong men stand face to face, tho’ they come from the ends of the earth!

Kamal is out with twenty men to raise the Border-side,
And he has lifted the Colonel’s mare that is the Colonel’s pride:
He has lifted her out of the stable-door between the dawn and the day,
And turned the calkins upon her feet, and ridden her far away.
Then up and spoke the Colonel’s son that led a troop of the Guides:
“Is there never a man of all my men can say where Kamal hides?”
Then up and spoke Mahommed Khan, the son of the Ressaldar:
“If ye know the track of the morning-mist, ye know where his pickets are.
At dusk he harries the Abazai—at dawn he is into Bonair,
But he must go by Fort Bukloh to his own place to fare,
So if ye gallop to Fort Bukloh as fast as a bird can fly,
By the favour of God ye may cut him off ere he win to the Tongue of Jagai.
But if he be past the Tongue of Jagai, right swiftly turn ye then,
For the length and the breadth of that grisly plain is sown with Kamal’s men.
There is rock to the left, and rock to the right, and low lean thorn between,
And ye may hear a breech-bolt snick where never a man is seen.”
The Colonel’s son has taken a horse, and a raw rough dun was he,
With the mouth of a bell and the heart of Hell and the head of the gallows-tree.
The Colonel’s son to the Fort has won, they bid him stay to eat—
Who rides at the tail of a Border thief, he sits not long at his meat.
He’s up and away from Fort Bukloh as fast as he can fly,
Till he was aware of his father’s mare in the gut of the Tongue of Jagai,
Till he was aware of his father’s mare with Kamal upon her back,
And when he could spy the white of her eye, he made the pistol crack.
He has fired once, he has fired twice, but the whistling ball went wide.
“Ye shoot like a soldier,” Kamal said. “Show now if ye can ride.”
It’s up and over the Tongue of Jagai, as blown dustdevils go,
The dun he fled like a stag of ten, but the mare like a barren doe.
The dun he leaned against the bit and slugged his head above,
But the red mare played with the snaffle-bars, as a maiden plays with a glove.
There was rock to the left and rock to the right, and low lean thorn between,
And thrice he heard a breech-bolt snick tho’ never a man was seen.
They have ridden the low moon out of the sky, their hoofs drum up the dawn,
The dun he went like a wounded bull, but the mare like a new-roused fawn.
The dun he fell at a water-course—in a woful heap fell he,
And Kamal has turned the red mare back, and pulled the rider free.
He has knocked the pistol out of his hand—small room was there to strive,
“’Twas only by favour of mine,” quoth he, “ye rode so long alive:
There was not a rock for twenty mile, there was not a clump of tree,
But covered a man of my own men with his rifle cocked on his knee.
If I had raised my bridle-hand, as I have held it low,
The little jackals that flee so fast were feasting all in a row:
If I had bowed my head on my breast, as I have held it high,
The kite that whistles above us now were gorged till she could not fly.”
Lightly answered the Colonel’s son: “Do good to bird and beast,
But count who come for the broken meats before thou makest a feast.
If there should follow a thousand swords to carry my bones away,
Belike the price of a jackal’s meal were more than a thief could pay.
They will feed their horse on the standing crop, their men on the garnered grain,
The thatch of the byres will serve their fires when all the cattle are slain.
But if thou thinkest the price be fair,—thy brethren wait to sup,
The hound is kin to the jackal-spawn,—howl, dog, and call them up!
And if thou thinkest the price be high, in steer and gear and stack,
Give me my father’s mare again, and I’ll fight my own way back!”
Kamal has gripped him by the hand and set him upon his feet.
“No talk shall be of dogs,” said he, “when wolf and gray wolf meet.
May I eat dirt if thou hast hurt of me in deed or breath;
What dam of lances brought thee forth to jest at the dawn with Death?”
Lightly answered the Colonel’s son: “I hold by the blood of my clan:
Take up the mare for my father’s gift—by God, she has carried a man!”
The red mare ran to the Colonel’s son, and nuzzled against his breast;
“We be two strong men,” said Kamal then, “but she loveth the younger best.
So she shall go with a lifter’s dower, my turquoise-studded rein,
My broidered saddle and saddle-cloth, and silver stirrups twain.”
The Colonel’s son a pistol drew and held it muzzle-end,
“Ye have taken the one from a foe,” said he; “will ye take the mate from a friend?”
“A gift for a gift,” said Kamal straight; “a limb for the risk of a limb.
Thy father has sent his son to me, I’ll send my son to him!”
With that he whistled his only son, that dropped from a mountain-crest—
He trod the ling like a buck in spring, and he looked like a lance in rest.
“Now here is thy master,” Kamal said, “who leads a troop of the Guides,
And thou must ride at his left side as shield on shoulder rides.
Till Death or I cut loose the tie, at camp and board and bed,
Thy life is his—thy fate it is to guard him with thy head.
So, thou must eat the White Queen’s meat, and all her foes are thine,
And thou must harry thy father’s hold for the peace of the Border-line,
And thou must make a trooper tough and hack thy way to power—
Belike they will raise thee to Ressaldar when I am hanged in Peshawur.”

They have looked each other between the eyes, and there they found no fault,
They have taken the Oath of the Brother-in-Blood on leavened bread and salt:
They have taken the Oath of the Brother-in-Blood on fire and fresh-cut sod,
On the hilt and the haft of the Khyber knife, and the Wondrous Names of God.
The Colonel’s son he rides the mare and Kamal’s boy the dun,
And two have come back to Fort Bukloh where there went forth but one.
And when they drew to the Quarter-Guard, full twenty swords flew clear—
There was not a man but carried his feud with the blood of the mountaineer.
“Ha’ done! ha’ done!” said the Colonel’s son. “Put up the steel at your sides!
Last night ye had struck at a Border thief—to-night ’Tis a man of the Guides!”

Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God’s great Judgment Seat;
But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
When two strong men stand face to face, tho’ they come from the ends of the earth!

[lofter1]

Capitalism at it's best: supply + demand ...

Gaza shopkeeper stocks up on Danish flags to burn

By Nidal al-Mughrabi
06 Feb 2006
Source: Reuters

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L06153755.htm

GAZA, Feb 6 (Reuters) - When entrepreneur Ahmed Abu Dayya first heard that Danish caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad were being reprinted across Europe, he knew exactly what his customers in Gaza would want: flags to burn.

Abu Dayya ordered 100 hard-to-find Danish and Norwegian flags for his Gaza City shop and has been doing a swift trade.

"I do not take political stands. It is all business," he said in an interview. "But this time I was offended by the assault on the Prophet Mohammad."

A wave of anger has swept the Muslim world over the publication of the cartoons, one of which shows the Prophet wearing a turban shaped like a bomb.

First printed in Denmark, the cartoons have appeared in newspapers across Europe, as well as in the United States.

While normally hard to come by in isolated Gaza, Danish and Norwegian flags are now popping up at daily protests, increasingly replacing Israel's Star of David.

It's not clear how many merchants apart from Abu Dayya are offering the flags, but they appear to be readily available. Angry Muslims set the flags ablaze or tear them to pieces.

At a protest on Monday outside European Union offices in Gaza, dozens of Palestinian students chanted: "Down with Denmark. Down with Norway. With our blood and with our souls, we will sacrifice for our Prophet."

In Beirut and Damascus, mobs set Danish and Norwegian embassies on fire.

"I knew there would be a demand for the flags because of the angry reaction of people over the offence to Prophet Mohammad," said Abu Dayya, whose PLO Flag Shop also sells souvenirs and presents.

He sells his Danish and Norwegian flags for $11 a piece -- a price he acknowledged might be dampening sales. Many protesters prefer to save money and make the flags themselves from scraps of fabric, he said.

Abu Dayya sources some of his flags from suppliers in Taiwan, but he buys Israeli flags from a merchant in Israel, even though he sells them to be burnt at anti-Israeli rallies.

Flag-making has been a growth business for Abu Dayya for years, thanks to orders by Palestinian militant groups for national flags and banners bearing the symbols of armed factions.

Last year, he said the Palestinian Authority ordered 60,000 flags ahead of Israel's withdrawal from Gaza. Workers at one factory stitched some 3,000 pennants a day.

While the flag merchant said the Danish cartoons upset him, he urged fellow Gazans not to punish Danish citizens collectively, citing their humanitarian assistance to the Palestinian people.

[Jasonik]

Feb. 8, 2006 16:59 | Updated Feb. 8, 2006 18:08

Danish ed.: I'd print Holocaust cartoons

By ASSOCIATED PRESS

The Danish editor behind the publication of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad that ignited deadly riots in the Muslim world said Wednesday that he was trying to coordinate with an Iranian paper soliciting cartoons on the Holocaust.

"My newspaper is trying to establish a contact with the Iranian newspaper, and we would run the cartoons the same day as they publish them," Flemming Rose said Wednesday in an interview on CNN's "American Morning."

The Iranian newspaper Hamshahri said Tuesday that it would hold the competition to test whether the West extended the principle of freedom of expression to the Nazi genocide as it did to the caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad.

Those cartoons were first published by Rose's newspaper Jyllands-Posten in September. As Muslim protests mounted, numerous European newspapers have reprinted them in recent days in the name of free expression, provoking wider and angrier protests.

Rose, Jyllands-Posten's culture editor told CNN that he came up with the idea after several local cases of self-censorship involving people fearing reprisals from Muslims.

"There was a story out there and we had to cover it," Rose said. "We just chose to cover it in a different way, according to the principal: Don't tell it, show it."

The Iranian newspaper said its contest would be launched Monday and co-sponsored by the House of Caricatures, a Tehran exhibition center for cartoons. The paper and the cartoon center are owned by the Tehran Municipality, which is dominated by allies of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, well known for his opposition to Israel.

[Swede]

"My newspaper is trying to establish a contact with the Iranian newspaper, and we would run the cartoons the same day as they publish them," Flemming Rose said Wednesday in an interview on CNN's "American Morning."
According to Flemming himself (as reported by Sweden's largest morning newspaper (http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=148&a=519963&previousRenderType=14)<-- if you know Scandinavian) this is a misquote. They won't decide anything til they see the pictures.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Alfred Marshall proponents in Gaza.

Mr Spice would be proud.

[ablarc]

"My newspaper is trying to establish a contact with the Iranian newspaper, and we would run the cartoons the same day as they publish them,"
Good move.

[ablarc]

According to Flemming himself...this is a misquote. They won't decide anything til they see the pictures.
Too bad. Nobody needs his judgment on this matter. News is news.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Iowa Muslims encourage exercise of rights with empathy

Iowa Views

By STEPHEN AIGNER, IBRAHEEM DREMALI and MOHAMAD KAHN
SPECIAL TO THE REGISTER

Newspapers in Europe have published provocative, extremely offensive cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad. Their spokespersons and governments have acknowledged the offense without apology, claiming that "the freedom of speech is absolute."

Muslims in Iowa unanimously support the freedom of speech and expression. However, we also urge everyone to reflect on the effects of their free choices with compassion and empathy. Mere acknowledgment is not enough; an apology is very appropriate.

Like Christians a few years ago, American Muslims were outraged and offended by a government-funded display of art in which the crucified Jesus was in some body waste. We shared the justifiable anguish of Christians then, and Muslims would share the feelings of Jews if Moses were so offensively treated. All Prophets deserve our veneration and profound respect as God's messengers. We would like people of other religions to reciprocate our respect and veneration for all Prophets.

While it is true that freedom of the press is essential in democracies, those who represent the dominant religion and the government have the responsibility to examine the impact of their free speech on those whose faiths and beliefs place them in the minority. Mutual, reciprocal respect for the faith and scriptures of other traditions is as essential as free speech in societies that aim to promote true democracy in Europe, North America and the Middle East.

Across the globe people must learn to differentiate between entities that distort the message of a religion in order to justify reprehensible acts of violence. Government-supported, simple-minded expressions of free speech without regard to reciprocal, mutual respect for others do not promote the sense of belonging necessary for a citizen's allegiance.


- Stephen Aigner, chair, board of directors, The Darul Arqum Islamic Center, Ames.
- Shaikh Ibraheem Dremali, Imam, The Islamic Center, Des Moines.
- Mohamad Kahn, Imam, The Muslim Community Center, Des Moines.


Copyright © 2005, The Des Moines Register.

[ablarc]

^ A good statement, but perhaps more American in sentiment, alas, than Islamic.

[ZippyTheChimp]

More from Mid-America:

Muslims condemn cartoon-sparked violence

By
REGISTER STAFF WRITERS

Offensive cartoons of the prophet Muhammad tempt outrage, Iowa Muslims said Monday, but the religious leaders condemned the violence that continued Monday in protests around the world.

"Muhammad and Allah are more valuable to us than our own lives, the lives of our children, mothers and fathers," said Imam Ibrahim Dremali of the Des Moines Islamic Center. "So when someone comes along and publishes those pictures, they must know what they are doing. They are testing Muslims, trying to see what we will do, how we will react. It is an insult to the prophet, God, Muslims, Islam, the Quran and all humanity."

Demonstrators on Monday hurled stones and firebombs at the Danish Embassy in Tehran, Iran. Two hundred student demonstrators threw stones at the Austrian Embassy. In Afghanistan, troops shot and killed four protesters as they tried to storm a U.S. military base outside Bagram.

Ahmed Souaiaia, a University of Iowa assistant professor in religious studies who teaches an introduction to Islam course, said the cartoons, published in European newspapers, communicate the idea that all Muslims are violent.

Souaiaia pointed specifically to one of the caricatures, which depicts Muhammad wearing a bomb for a turban.

"The message is that Islam is inherently violent since its founder is someone who taught violence," Souaiaia said. "Such a message does not distinguish between the various facets of Islam, a religion that is so diverse to be stereotyped by reductionist cartoons like the ones published."

The cartoons were first published in September in Denmark. The latest round of violent protests, aimed at Western embassies, was sparked by the reprinting of the images this month by French, Norwegian and Austrian papers.

"It is OK to protest. We must protest," said Cyma Saeed of Ames. "But we must peacefully march and must petition the government. It is wrong to hurt someone else because of what one newspaper has done."

Muslim leaders from Des Moines and Ames last weekend released a statement decrying publication of the cartoons. They asked for empathy and compassion in exercising freedom of the press, but strongly condemned the violence that the cartoons have spawned.

"I support the boycott of Danish products, but there is no excuse for violence," said Dremali, one of the imams who signed the statement. "The rioting and violence are forbidden in Islam."

Souaiaia said he doesn't believe violence is an appropriate response to the cartoons. However, he said his judgment - from someone informed of the values of democracy, freedom of speech and expression - does not reflect the way the issue is perceived in the Muslim world.

Few American news outlets have chosen to publish the pictures. People who have wanted to see the cartoons have generally had to search for them online.

Kathleen Carroll, executive editor of the Associated Press, explained in a statement that the cartoons don't meet the media organization's long-held standards.

"We don't distribute content that is known to be offensive, with rare exceptions," Carroll said. "This is not one of those exceptions. We made the decision in December and have looked at the issue again this week and reaffirmed that decision not to distribute."

Carolyn Washburn, editor of The Des Moines Register, said the newspaper probably could have gotten permission to reprint the cartoons if it wished. However, she said the intent is not to spread any perceived insults or stereotypes.

"The point is that some Muslims are offended by them," Washburn said. "I think that people need to apply their own faith tradition to this debate and ask themselves how they would feel if hurtful, stereotypical images of someone important in their faith tradition - Jesus Christ or Buddha - were also shown in an offensive way."

Kathleen Richardson, assistant professor of journalism at Drake University, said part of journalism ethics is being sensitive to readers. She said the cartoons of Muhammad amount to hate speech.

"How many mass media outlets would run cartoons that portrayed Jesus Christ in a bad light?" asked Richardson, who's also executive secretary of the Iowa Freedom of Information Council."

When Mohamad Khan , imam for the Muslim Community Center of Des Moines, learned the publication of the cartoons, he was filled with dread.

"When it first came out, some of the European press were making a lot of fun out of it," Khan said. "I knew it would cause great anger and that if there wasn't an apology, the people would show their outrage."

Elvedin Sivac, spokesman for the Islamic and Cultural Center Bosniak, said that in Islam, the "face of the prophet" has never been revealed to the people.

"As apostles, we believe that Muhammad was the finest person on Earth and that Allah chose Muhammad as his prophet," Sivac said. "We also believe that a person cannot draw pictures of God or the prophet without diminishing his power."

Souaiaia agreed that for Sunni Muslims, any rendition of the prophet's image is highly undesirable. For some, it is prohibited for theological reasons. However, he said not all Muslims are against the depiction of the prophet.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

Copyright © 2005, The Des Moines Register.

[ZippyTheChimp]

February 9, 2006

The Protests

At Mecca Meeting, Cartoon Outrage Crystalized

By HASSAN M. FATTAH

BEIRUT, Lebanon, Feb. 8 — As leaders of the world's 57 Muslim nations gathered for a summit meeting in Mecca in December, issues like religious extremism dominated the official agenda. But much of the talk in the hallways was of a wholly different issue: Danish cartoons satirizing the Prophet Muhammad.

The closing communiqué took note of the issue when it expressed "concern at rising hatred against Islam and Muslims and condemned the recent incident of desecration of the image of the Holy Prophet Muhammad in the media of certain countries" as well as over "using the freedom of expression as a pretext to defame religions."

The meeting in Mecca, a Saudi city from which non-Muslims are barred, drew minimal international press coverage even though such leaders as President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran were in attendance. But on the road from quiet outrage in a small Muslim community in northern Europe to a set of international brush fires, the summit meeting of the Organization of the Islamic Conference — and the role its member governments played in the outrage — was something of a turning point.

After that meeting, anger at the Danish caricatures, especially at an official government level, became more public. In some countries, like Syria and Iran, that meant heavy press coverage in official news media and virtual government approval of demonstrations that ended with Danish embassies in flames.

In recent days, some governments in Muslim countries have tried to calm the rage, worried by the increasing level of violence and deaths in some cases.

But the pressure began building as early as October, when Danish Islamists were lobbying Arab ambassadors and Arab ambassadors lobbied Arab governments.

"It was no big deal until the Islamic conference when the O.I.C. took a stance against it," said Muhammad el-Sayed Said, deputy director of the Ahram Center for Political and Strategic Studies in Cairo.

Sari Hanafi, an associate professor at the American University in Beirut, said that for Arab governments resentful of the Western push for democracy, the protests presented an opportunity to undercut the appeal of the West to Arab citizens. The freedom pushed by the West, they seemed to say, brought with it disrespect for Islam.

He said the demonstrations "started as a visceral reaction — of course they were offended — and then you had regimes taking advantage saying, 'Look, this is the democracy they're talking about.' "

The protests also allowed governments to outflank a growing challenge from Islamic opposition movements by defending Islam.

At first, the agitation was limited to Denmark. Ahmed Akkari, 28, a Lebanese-born Dane, acts as spokesman for the European Committee for Honoring the Prophet, an umbrella group of 27 Danish Muslim organizations to press the Danish government into action over the cartoons.

Mr. Akkari said the group had worked for more than two months in Denmark without eliciting any response. "We collected 17,000 signatures and delivered them to the office of the prime minister, we saw the minister of culture, we talked to the editor of the Jyllands-Posten, we took many steps within Denmark, but could get no action," Mr. Akkari said, referring to the newspaper that published the cartoons. He added that the prime minister's office had not even responded to the petition.

Frustrated, he said, the group turned to the ambassadors of Muslim countries in Denmark and asked them to speak to the prime minister on their behalf. He refused them too.

"Then the case moved to a new stage," Mr. Akkari recalled. "We decided then that to be heard, it must come from influential people in the Muslim world."

The group put together a 43-page dossier, including the offending cartoons and three more shocking images that had been sent to Danish Muslims who had spoken out against the Jyllands-Posten cartoons.

Mr. Akkari denied that the three other offending images had contributed to the violent reaction, saying the images, received in the mail by Muslims who had complained about the cartoons, were included to show the response that Muslims got when they spoke out in Denmark.

In early December, the group's first delegation of Danish Muslims flew to Cairo, where they met with the grand mufti, Muhammad Sayid Tantawy, Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit and Amr Moussa, the head of the Arab League.

"After that, there was a certain response," Mr. Akkari said, adding that the Cairo government and the Arab League both summoned the Danish ambassador to Egypt for talks.

Mr. Akkari denies that the group had meant to misinform, but concedes that there were misunderstandings along the way.

In Cairo, for example, the group also met with journalists from Egypt's media. During a news conference, they spoke about a proposal from the far-right Danish People's Party to ban the Koran in Denmark because of some 200 verses that are alleged to encourage violence.

Several newspapers then ran articles claiming that Denmark planned to issue a censored version of the Koran. The delegation returned to Denmark, but the dossier continued to make waves in the Middle East. Egypt's foreign minister had taken the dossier with him to the Mecca meeting, where he showed it around. The Danish group also sent a second delegation to Lebanon to meet religious and political leaders there.

Mr. Akkari went on that trip. The delegation met with the grand mufti in Lebanon, Muhammad Rashid Kabbani, and the spiritual head of Lebanon's Shiite Muslims, Sheik Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, as well as the patriarch of the Maronite Church, Nasrallah Sfeir. The group also appeared on Hezbollah's satellite station Al Manar TV, which is seen throughout the Arab world.

Mr. Akkari also made a side trip to Damascus, Syria, to deliver a copy of the dossier to that country's grand mufti, Sheik Ahmed Badr-Eddine Hassoun.

Lebanon's foreign minister, Fawzi Salloukh, says he agreed to meet in mid-December with Egypt's ambassador to Lebanon, who presented him with a letter from his foreign minister, Aboul Gheit, urging him to get involved in the issue. Attached to the letter were copies of some of the drawings.

At the end of December, the pace picked up as talk of a boycott became more prominent. The Islamic Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, comprising more than 50 states, published on its Web site a statement condemning "the aggressive campaign waged against Islam and its Prophet" by Jyllands-Posten, and officials of the organization said member nations should impose a boycott on Denmark until an apology was offered for the drawings.

"We encourage the organization's members to boycott Denmark both economically and politically until Denmark presents an official apology for the drawings that have offended the world's Muslims," said Abdulaziz Othman al-Twaijri, the organization's secretary general.

In a few weeks, the Jordanian Parliament condemned the cartoons, as had several other Arab governments.

On Jan. 10, as anti-Danish pressure built, a Norwegian newspaper republished the caricatures in an act of solidarity with the Danes, leading many Muslims to believe that a real campaign against them had begun.

On Jan. 26, in a key move, Saudi Arabia recalled its ambassador to Denmark, and Libya followed suit. Saudi clerics began sounding the call for a boycott, and within a day, most Danish products were pulled off supermarket shelves.

"The Saudis did this because they have to score against Islamic fundamentalists," said Mr. Said, the Cairo political scientist. "Syria made an even worse miscalculation," he added, alluding to the sense that the protest had gotten out of hand. The issue of the cartoons came at a critical time in the Muslim world because of Muslim anger over the occupation of Iraq and a sense that Muslims were under siege. Strong showings by Islamists in elections in Egypt and the victory of Hamas in the Palestinian elections had given new momentum to Islamic movements in the region, and many economies, especially those in the Persian Gulf, realized their economic power as it pertained to Denmark.

"The cartoons were a fuse that lit a bigger fire," said Rami Khouri, editor at large at the English-language Daily Star of Beirut. "It is this deepening sense of vulnerability combines with a sense that the Islamists were on a roll that made it happen."

The wave swept many in the region. Sheik Muhammad Abu Zaid, an imam from the Lebanese town of Saida, said he began hearing of the caricatures from several Palestinian friends visiting from Denmark in December but made little of it.

"For me, honestly, this didn't seem so important," Sheik Abu Zaid said, comparing the drawings to those made of Jesus in Christian countries. "I thought, I know that this is something typical in such countries."

Then, he started to hear that ambassadors of Arab countries had tried to meet with the prime minister of Denmark and had been snubbed, and he began to feel differently.

"It started to seem that this way of thinking was an insult to us," he said. "It is fine to say, 'This is our freedom, this is our way of thinking.' But we began to believe that their freedom was something that hurts us."

Last week, Sheik Abu Zaid heard about a march being planned on the Danish Consulate in Beirut, and he decided to join. He and 600 others boarded buses bound for Beirut. Within an hour of arriving, some of the demonstrators — none of his people, he insisted — became violent, and began attacking the building that housed the embassy. It was just two days after a similar attack against the Danish and Norwegian Embassies in Damascus.

"In the demonstration, I believe 99 percent of the people were good and peaceful, but I could hear people saying, 'We don't want to demonstrate peacefully; we want to burn,' " the sheik said.

He tried in vain to calm people down, he said. "I was calling to the people, 'Please, please follow us and go back.' " he said. "We were hoping to calm people down, and we were hoping to help the peaceful people who were caught in the middle of the fight."

Reporting for this article was contributed by Craig S. Smith from Paris, Katherine Zoepf from Beirut, Suha Maayeh from Amman, Abeer Allam from Cairo and Massoud A. Derhally from Dubai.

* Copyright 2006The New York Times Company

[lofter1]

Egyptian Newspaper Pictures that Published Cartoons 5 months ago
No Danish Treatment for an Egyptian Newspaper

Freedom For Egyptians
Feb. 8, 2006

http://freedomforegyptians.blogspot.com/2006/02/egyptian-newspaper-pictures-that.html

I promised you in my previous post (http://freedomforegyptians.blogspot.com/2006/02/cartoons-were-published-five-months.html) to bring you the images of the Egyptian newspaper, Al Fager (as pronounced in Egyptian Arabic) that published the Danish Cartoons five month ago on Oct 17, 2005. Here is below the front page where the Prophet Muhammed(PBUH) cartoon from Jyllands-Posten was published.


http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7353/1246/320/Alfagerfrontpageright.jpg (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7353/1246/1600/Alfagerfrontpageright.jpg)

A closer look. The text says in Arabic that a special reportage is inside. Mind you that this is the holy Muslim month of Ramadan. While Muslims are worshipping in this holy month, not a single protest was called in Cairo against Denmark or the newspaper.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7353/1246/320/caricaturefrontpageright.jpg (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7353/1246/1600/caricaturefrontpageright.jpg)

Here is an image for page 17 where the whole report was published with 6 cartoons as published in Jyllands-Posten.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7353/1246/320/Alfagerpage17right.3.jpg (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7353/1246/1600/Alfagerpage17right.3.jpg)

The two Egyptian editors, Ahmed Abel Maksound and Youssera Zaharan, from Al Fager newspaper. And from their names I could tell you that they are Muslims and there is no news on arresting them as the case in Jordan few days ago

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7353/1246/320/Alfagertwojournalistsright.jpg (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7353/1246/1600/Alfagertwojournalistsright.jpg)

Here is the front page with a closer look on the date , Monday October 17, 2005

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7353/1246/320/Alfagerdateright.jpg (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7353/1246/1600/Alfagerdateright.jpg)

Two days ago the editor in chief of Al Fager Adel Hammouda wrote an article expressing his surprise why this war is suddenly launched after 4 months. He indicates as I said in my previous post that it is politically motivated to hide more corrupt issues behind. And he is not apologizing for publishing the cartoons as the Danish newspaper did. Instead, he is proud his paper was first to publish. Denmark Cartoons absent Real Democracy Battle in Egypt (http://freedomforegyptians.blogspot.com/2006/02/denmark-cartoons-absent-real-democracy.html)

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7353/1246/320/Alfagereditorchiefright.1.jpg (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7353/1246/1600/Alfagereditorchiefright.1.jpg)

Previously:
Cartoons were Published Five Months ago in Egypt (http://freedomforegyptians.blogspot.com/2006/02/cartoons-were-published-five-months.html),Boycott the Boycott (http://freedomforegyptians.blogspot.com/2006/01/join-sandmonkey-retardedness-campaign.html)
Denmark, Do not Apologize (http://freedomforegyptians.blogspot.com/2006/02/denmark-do-not-apologize.html)
Denmark Cartoons absent Real Democracy Battle in Egypt (http://freedomforegyptians.blogspot.com/2006/02/denmark-cartoons-absent-real-democracy.html)
Why Egyptians are not torching Danish Embassies? (http://freedomforegyptians.blogspot.com/2006/02/why-egyptians-are-not-torching-danish.html)

[lofter1]

Now you can wear the cartoons ...

http://www.drudgereport.com/mt.jpg

http://www.shopmetrospy.com/ (but seems to be inaccessible for now)

[Ninjahedge]

Now you can wear the cartoons ...

http://www.drudgereport.com/mt.jpg

http://www.shopmetrospy.com/ (but seems to be inaccessible for now)

Why not.

Is this any worse than stores in the middle east stocking up on flags of different european nations?


Capitalism baby!

[JMGarcia]

Now you can wear the cartoons ...

http://www.drudgereport.com/mt.jpg

http://www.shopmetrospy.com/ (but seems to be inaccessible for now)

I'm sure the market for these is somewhat different than the market for the ones with bin-laden and the burning WTC behind him. ;)

[lofter1]

More on the faked cartoons ...

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2006_02_05-2006_02_11.shtml#1139559700

The second extra "cartoon," supposedly showing Muhammed with a pig snout is a crude forgery, not even a picture of Muhammed at all. As NeanderNews revealed (http://www.neandernews.com/?p=54%20.) (tip to Powerline (http://powerlineblog.com/archives/013069.php)), it is:


a photo of Jacques Barrot, a pig squealing contestant at the French Pig-Squealing Championships in Trie-sur-Baise’s annual festival. NeanderNews discovered this photo, taken by Bob Edme of AP, posted on an August 15, 2005 AP story seen here on MSNBC’s website.

The photo of Barrot in a pig snout appears merely to have been photoshopped with a black and white screen to make it appear to be a cartoon.

Original AP photo (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8959820) :


http://volokh.com/files/jim-050815_pigsqueal_hmed_8a.hmedium[1]-small.jpg (http://volokh.com/files/jim-050815_pigsqueal_hmed_8a.hmedium[1].jpg)

Fake "cartoon" :

http://volokh.com/files/jim-bogusmohammedcartoon[1]-small.jpg (http://volokh.com/files/jim-bogusmohammedcartoon[1].jpg)

I wish there were some way of holding the perpetrators of this fraud responsible. Did the Danish clerics organize the fraud themselves, or were they duped? And how clear were they during their tour (http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/02/british-daily-telegraph-quotes-gp-us.html) that the three most offensive cartoons had never been published?

All Related Posts (on one page) (http://volokh.com/posts/chain_1139073913.shtml) | Some Related Posts:

A New Cartoon of Mohammed Printed in French Paper: (http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2006_02_05-2006_02_11.shtml#1139427397)
Desecration: (http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2006_02_05-2006_02_11.shtml#1139425797)
He Said "Jehovah"! (http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/brian/b-script.htm)
The Three Extra Cartoons May Be Forgeries.--
More on Danes Boycotting, and Being Boycotted (http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/649):

[Fabrizio]

Shown last night on our state run television channel:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7808610476081505088&q=i+will+survive

[lofter1]

^^ F***ing Hilarious

[ZippyTheChimp]

Har!!

[ZippyTheChimp]

I expected that this would pop up again, but so far, I haven't heard anything.

Along the interior walls of the US Supreme Court, there is a marble frieze depicting 18 lawgivers throughout history. Muhammad is one of them. He is depicted holding the Quran in one hand, and a sword in the other.

In the late 90s, an Islamic group asked the Court that the figure be removed. They especially disproved of the sword, stating that it reinforced a stereotype that Islam is a violent religion. Chief Justice Rehnquist refused, explaining that in law, the sword is a common symbol of justice, not warfare.

[ZippyTheChimp]

February 12, 2006
The World

Beneath the Rage in the Mideast

By MICHAEL SLACKMAN

CAIRO

EGYPTIANS were hardly astonished when a ferry packed with more than 1,400 passengers sank in the Red Sea. Anyone who has struggled to navigate daily life here knows safety standards are virtually nonexistent, and the value of human life is often overlooked by a government widely considered to be driven by corruption and favoritism.

But the loss of the ferry, Al Salam, on Feb. 3, and the government's delayed and limited response to the emergency, have implications that extend beyond the scope of the disaster, and beyond the borders of Egypt.

The calamity speaks directly to the slow burn that consumes many Egyptians — and many other Arabs — who live under governments that rule with virtual impunity no matter how bumbling, incompetent or abusive they are. Similar frustrations, if over other issues, play out around the region, in places like Syria, Jordan, Yemen, and among the Palestinians.

It is difficult to draw an absolute link between the ferry disaster and the violence that exploded across much of the Muslim world last week in response to Danish cartoons that had lampooned the Prophet Muhammad. Many Muslims feel it was blasphemous to draw the Prophet at all, let alone in a mocking manner.

But in the coincidence of the two events, there is a clue to a dynamic that has played out in this region for many years: Leaders often call attention to external enemies — most often the Israelis — as a device to allow their own subjects to blow off steam. The anger itself is almost always home grown.

The crisis over the cartoons has often been portrayed as a clash in values between the Muslim and Western worlds, focusing on issues of free expression and respect for other cultures.

But that crisis and the ferry sinking also reflect another difference in perspective. While the West speaks of democracy and freedom, Muslims here tend to speak of justice. There is widespread feeling that the region's governments deny their people justice, and this feeling has been instrumental in the increased support for Islamists throughout the Middle East, whether the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, or Hamas among the Palestinians.

"It has reached to the point where Egyptians do not feel entitled to anything, and all they want is justice," said Ibrahim Aslan, a leading Egyptian writer. "Across history, in literature, Egyptian peasants asked for justice, not for freedom or democracy. Just justice. Social justice."

Islamists promise not just piety, but an end to corruption and misrule. That challenge helps explain the eagerness of established governments to pursue the conflict over the Danish cartoons — to increase their own credibility on religious issues and resist the Islamists' rising popularity.

The sinking of the ferry is a case study of this dynamic. More than 1,000 people drowned. By Friday, more than 600 bodies had not been recovered. At least 1,000 people continued to stand vigil on the streets outside a hospital along the Red Sea.

It had taken more than seven hours to launch a rescue operation. Worried relatives had been greeted at the banks of the Red Sea by riot police who beat them back. For days, people sat on the street, under the sun, waiting for any information. And the state-run media tried to turn the whole matter into a public relations victory for President Hosni Mubarak.

"When Mubarak visited the survivors in Hurghada and decided to grant them 30,000 Egyptian pounds, every one in Egypt felt safe and appreciative of the patriarch of the Egyptian family who does not hesitate to present his condolences and help in such hard time," Samir Ragab, a friend of the president, wrote on Monday in El Gumhuria, an Egyptian newspaper.

If the scope of what happened was unusual, it may be the only thing that was. Pick a day. Pick a tragedy. Match the government's response.

A train loaded with poor Egyptians burned in 2002 on its way to Luxor, and an official said the driver unhitched the flaming cars and continued on his way, leaving behind hundreds to die. No high-ranking officials were ever charged.

A fire tore through a small theater last year, killing at least 30 people. The only emergency door had been bolted shut. The minister of culture offered his resignation, but the president did not accept it.

"These disasters continue to happen because this is a decaying state," said Hesham Kassem, a member of the board of the Egyptian Organization for Human Rights and deputy managing editor of the leading independent newspaper, El Masri El Youm. "The corrupt government officials control all sectors and are responsible for all disasters we face. But the government would not hold itself accountable."

So far, the general public has been largely quiet over the ferry disaster. Many Egyptians accept the inevitability of it as evidence that all events — good and bad — reflect God's will; many others are resigned based on experiences that taught them the government does not care.

"All this together," said Mr. Aslan, the writer, "creates this bewildered citizen who is addicted to sorrow and suffering."

But that does not preclude suppressed rage. Islamists, in effect, already preach an alternative to resignation, saying Islam should become the government. And anger among those directly affected can explode — as it did among relatives of the missing. After days of frustration, they burned down the shipping company's offices.

"The entire government is dysfunctional," complained Ahmed Abdel Rahim, whose brother was lost. "There is no government and there is no rescue. They are treating us like animals. And this is not the first time. There was the train, and another ship, and a plane. The rescue is a lie. We are sitting here — no tents, no water. They are giving the people the dirtiest treatment. What did we do wrong? And no money will compensate us. We don't want money. We want our relatives and we want a system!"

This overt expression of anger is what Middle East governments fear most, if it were ever to spread to the general public. To many analysts, it explains the effort to focus on objects of hatred abroad — usually Jews and Israel, most recently countries in Europe.

The ship sinking clearly involved neither of those adversaries, and Egypt's newspapers reported on it extensively, even if much of the coverage sought to keep blame away from the president. So a narrative emerged.

The ferry was overloaded when it left Saudi Arabia, full of mostly poor Egyptians who work there because no jobs exist at home. When smoke filled the ship, witnesses said they begged the captain to turn around. Reports said the captain in turn begged the ship's owners to let him. But the owner, reports said, told him to proceed.

A day after the accident, President Mubarak went to Hurghada, where the families were waiting. He spent a short time in the hospital. He pledged an investigation, and $5,000 each for families of the victims.

The promise of an investigation was met with cynicism — a product of past promises and of the appointment, by Mr. Mubarak himself, of the shipping company's owner to the upper house of parliament.

All week, newspapers covered the disaster. They reported the rioting in other countries about the Danish newspaper's cartoons, too. Egyptian diplomats, it has been widely reported, were heavily involved in bringing the controvery from Denmark to the Middle East.

In the end, though, another event competed for Egyptians' attention.

On Friday night, the president, his wife and Prime Minister Ahmed Nazif attended the Africa Cub soccer match, where Egypt's team defeated Ivory Coast in the finals — a gift to a nation that has been whipsawed, and a president looking for distraction.

Though the soccer match was peaceful, in a way it was perfectly cast as a diversion: an emotion-charged conflict with a foreign adversary.

Mona el-Naggar and Abeer Allam contributed reporting from Cairo for this article.

* Copyright 2006The New York Times Company

[lofter1]

A good chuckle ...

http://www.jesusandmo.net/page/5/

[lofter1]

Not so funny ...

Police Gas Students Protesting Cartoons
http://www.breitbart.com/images/2006/2/13/D8FO91NG8/D8FO91NG8_preview.jpg

By RIAZ KHAN
Associated Press Writer
PESHAWAR, Pakistan
Feb 13 8:59 AM

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/02/13/D8FO91NG8.html

Police fired tear gas and wielded batons Monday to stop about 7,000 students protesting cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad from marching on the governor's residence in northwestern Pakistan.

The students had marched to several universities in Peshawar and hurled stones at a Christian school, breaking windows and causing other damage. They also threw stones at shops in the main business district, chanting "Down with America" and "Down with Denmark."

There were no immediate reports of casualties, but an Associated Press reporter saw students carrying away a classmate with an injured leg.

President Gen. Pervez Musharraf told journalists in the capital, Islamabad, on Monday that newspapers that have printed the caricatures were "being totally oblivious to the consequences for the world, for world peace and harmony."

"The most moderate Muslim will go to the street and talk against it because this hurts the sentiments of every Muslim," he said. "Whether an extremist or a moderate or an ultramoderate, we will condemn it."

Several large rallies have been held across Pakistan against the cartoons, which were first published in a Danish newspaper in September.

The cartoons have been reprinted in numerous publications in Europe and elsewhere in what publishers say is a show of solidarity for freedom of expression, setting off protests from Canada to Indonesia. Some demonstrations have been violent, and the tension has noticeably increased anti-Western dialogue in the Muslim world.

In the West Bank, hundreds of Palestinian children stomped on a Danish flag and shouted anti-Danish slogans Monday to protest the caricatures. The demonstration in Hebron was organized by a school affiliated with the Islamic militant group Hamas, which is poised to lead the next Palestinian government.

Palestinians have held mass protests against the drawings in recent weeks, threatened to kidnap Europeans in Gaza and chased foreign observers out of Hebron.

One of Iran's largest newspapers opened a contest Monday seeking caricatures of the Holocaust. Hamshahri newspaper said it wanted to test whether the West extends its principle of freedom of expression to the Nazi genocide as it did to the cartoons of Islam's prophet.

"We don't intend retaliation over the drawings of the prophet. We just want to show that freedom is restricted in the West," said Davood Kazemi, executive manager of the contest and cartoon editor at the paper.

The Iranian government on Sunday rejected an accusation by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice that it has fanned violent protests over the caricatures and demanded an apology, saying that could reduce growing tension.

Rice, meanwhile, said Iran and Syria should be urging their citizens to remain calm - not encouraging violence like the attacks on Western diplomatic missions in Iran, Syria and Lebanon.

Nearly a dozen people were killed in protests in Afghanistan.

"If people continue to incite it, it could spin out of control," she said Sunday on ABC's "This Week."

The drawings - including one that depicts the prophet wearing a turban shaped like a bomb - have offended many Muslims. Islamic tradition widely holds that representations of the prophet are banned for fear they could lead to idolatry.

But some suggest the genuine anger displayed by crowds across the Muslim world has been exploited or intensified by some Muslim countries to settle scores with Western powers.

Rice said Wednesday that "Iran and Syria have gone out of their way to inflame sentiments and to use this to their own purposes."

Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Hamid Reza Asefi said an apology from Rice and Denmark could help. "What happened was a natural reaction," Asefi said, adding that "an apology could alleviate the tension."

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan condemned the drawings as "insensitive and rather offensive," but he called for dialogue.

"Right now there's megaphone diplomacy," Annan told Denmark's national broadcaster DR. "And I think we should turn off the megaphones and begin to talk quietly to each other."

Associated Press Writer Nasser Karimi contributed to this report from Tehran, Iran.

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press

[TLOZ Link5]

Shown last night on our state run television channel:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7808610476081505088&q=i+will+survive

I've seen many variations of that. Hee hee.

[Swede]

in a pig snout appears merely to have been photoshopped with a black and white screen to make it appear to be a cartoon.


Original AP photo (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8959820) :


http://volokh.com/files/jim-050815_pigsqueal_hmed_8a.hmedium[1]-small.jpg (http://volokh.com/files/jim-050815_pigsqueal_hmed_8a.hmedium[1].jpg)

Fake "cartoon" :

http://volokh.com/files/jim-bogusmohammedcartoon[1]-small.jpg (http://volokh.com/files/jim-bogusmohammedcartoon[1].jpg)


What I don't get is how anyone could take that for a cartoon.

[ablarc]

What I don't get is why there is such a fuss.

[lofter1]

Not important if it is a "cartoon" or not.

The key thing is that many Muslims find ANY rendering of Mohammed to be a grievous act -- and now others are taking every opportunity use both actual and faked incidents of same (see pig-snouted fellow above) to further anger those Muslims who are offended.

One of the odder aspects of this whole situation to me: Depictions of Mohammed are not to be viewed as this may lead Muslims to idol-worship. So it seems the grievous act is more in the looking at the the object, rather than the production of the object.

But by destroying / disallowing the production of the object then perhaps the temptation is destroyed as well.

Christians go crazy about similar situations -- and demand removal of "sinful" material or objects so as to deny any temptation towards sin (see here for one recent example: http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=82670&postcount=142 ).

Seems some will power / self control might be in order -- but then man is a weak being, eh??

[Ninjahedge]

Not important if it is a "cartoon" or not.

The key thing is that many Muslims find ANY rendering of Mohammed to be a grievous act -- and now others are taking every opportunity use both actual and faked incidents of same (see pig-snouted fellow above) to further anger those Muslims who are offended.

One of the odder aspects of this whole situation to me: Depictions of Mohammed are not to be viewed as this may lead Muslims to idol-worship. So it seems the grievous act is more in the looking at the the object, rather than the production of the object.

But by destroying / disallowing the production of the object then perhaps the temptation is destroyed as well.

Christians go crazy about similar situations -- and demand removal of "sinful" material or objects so as to deny any temptation towards sin (see here for one recent example: http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=82670&postcount=142 ).

Seems some will power / self control might be in order -- but then man is a weak being, eh??

The removal of temptation does not remove the "evil" from the man. It just makes it harder to see.

Temptation should not be commonplace, granted, but a world without it is nothing more than a fantasy land designed by those that do not feel right by the temptations they feel themselves.


But that is not why this is having such a large uproar. you have a bunch of people who do not have what they want in life, who are tired of just about everything, and these opportunistic militaristic "leaders" using things like these pictures and an amorphously (anamorphously?) phrased forbiddance in Muslim faith to procure support agains "the common enemy".


Which is the same thing that Bush did with the bible thumpers, but to a more fanatical degree. Almost to the degree of disparity between education and living conditions of the areas involved.




When people do not have, they look to God to help them through it, whichever God that may be.

Any leader they have must also do the same, else fracture the fragile support system they have developed in their existance. If you believe that all you have in your life is what you see before you, in a country like that, there is not much of a reason to live, now is there?

Give them God and you give them a reason, even if that is not present in their mortal lives. Give a man that supports that and you tie into the emotion. Point your finger at someone who does not believe and you have the "them" you need for solidarity despite the injustices that the "we" perform.



Add into it the fact that most are kids, boys, hitting puberty and shortly thereafter and you havd a pile of dry timber just waiting to be lit.

[lofter1]

The fanning of the flames spreads the fire of hatred beyond cartoonists ...

Russian Muslim Leader Calls For Violent Protests Against Gay Pride Parade

by Malcolm Thornberry
365Gay.com European Bureau Chief
February 14, 2006

http://www.365gay.com/Newscon06/02/021406russia.htm

(Moscow) The leader of Russia's Muslims on Tuesday called for a "violent mass protest" if gay leaders go ahead with Pride celebrations this spring.

Gay Russia is planning a pride parade in the Russian capital on May 27, 2006 despite warnings from the city's mayor that a permit will not be granted. (story (http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/07/072905Moscow.htm))

The group says it is prepared to take the case all the way to the European Court in Strasbourg. Moscow is the biggest city in Europe never to have had a pride parade.

On Tuesday Chief Russian Mufti Talgat Tajuddin said gays could be killed if they go ahead.

"Muslims’ protests can be even worse than these notorious rallies abroad over the scandalous cartoons," Tajuddin, of Russia’s Central Spiritual Governance for Muslims, told ;the Interfax news agency.

"The parade should not be allowed, and if they still come out into the streets, then they should be bashed."

He also said that the powerful Russian Orthodox Church would likely join in protests.

“All normal people are going to join it — Muslims and Orthodox alike,” he told Interfax.

Tajuddin said that gays could do what they like behind closed doors but when they become public, "sexual minorities have no rights, because they have crossed the line," he said. "Alternative sexuality is a crime against God.”

Moderate Islamic leaders have distanced themselves from Tajuddin's remarks and the Orthodox Church would not comment.

Gay Russia spokesperson Nikolai Alekseev called Tajuddin's threats outrageous.

"We have never heard yet so strong words of hatred towards sexual minorities from influential public figures," Alekseev said.

"He said that we have no rights, appealed to violent actions and even to killings of gays. And what is terrible is that he used the current situation in the world, connected with the publication of caricatures, to incite hatred towards those who have absolutely no connection to that."

&#169;365Gay.com 2006

[ablarc]

More Muslim hate. Don't they ever get tired of hating?

"Spiritual Governance": they could use some of that. Oh...that's what this is...

Probably America's fault.

[ZippyTheChimp]

These people are stuck in the 15th century.

It's strange that in the US, the symbolic center of Western decadence for Islamic fundamentalists, and a country with its own racial problems, Muslims live in relative harmony.

I wonder what the Mideast imams think about American Muslims. Are they regarded as having succumbed to the devil?

[BrooklynRider]

...and the Orthodox Church would not comment...

Ah, Christians and their loving, forgiving god.

[ablarc]

...in the US, the symbolic center of Western decadence for Islamic fundamentalists, and a country with its own racial problems, Muslims live in relative harmony.

I wonder what the Mideast imams think about American Muslims. Are they regarded as having succumbed to the devil?
You almost never see folks smiling in photos of the Middle East.

My local convenience store owner is an Arab who's always ready with a joke, wears a Yankees cap and almost whistles as he works.

I have an Arab client with a similar demeanor who switches to shudders and grimaces when he speaks of his former homeland; he refers to his "escape" to America.

I wonder if their manner changes when they visit their old homes. Seems that all it takes to make them look happy is to come here.

[lofter1]

It'll be interesting to see how the Mufti ( http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=83155&postcount=77 ) reacts to this ...

New 'Allah' doc ready to raise a ruckus

Dubowski vows to screen pic in every Muslim nation

By ED MEZA (http://www.variety.com/index.asp?layout=bio&peopleID=1434)
Variety
Feb. 14, 2006

http://www.variety.com/VR1117938165.html

Sandi Dubowski, who won the Teddy gay and lesbian award in 2001 for his controversial doc "Trembling Before G-d," may cause an even bigger stir with "In the Name of Allah," which explores the struggles of homosexual Muslims.

Gay Indian Muslim helmer Parvez Sharma is directing the pic, which looks at gay, lesbian, and transgender Muslims across the Muslim and Western worlds.

"The world right now needs to understand Islam, and these are the most unlikely storytellers of Islam," Dubowski said, who is producing 'Allah.'

Doc will undoubtedly prove an even thornier film to export than "Trembling."

Sharma and Dubowski plan to submit the pic to all major festivals in the Muslim world as well as in the West, but if it's rejected, Dubowski said, "We'll find ways of screening it in every Muslim nation, even if it's underground."

Dubowski already faced problems with the international release of "Trembling Before G-d." Pic faced protests and bans in South Africa, Mexico and Baltimore.

But Dubowski has managed to open doors in the Hasidic and Orthodox communities in Israel, U.S. and U.K. and has toured the world over the past five years doing 800 live events with diverse religious and secular groups.

&#169; 2006 Reed Business Information (http://www.reedbusiness.com/index.asp?layout=cahnerscom)

[ablarc]

Is he going to end up like Theo Van Gogh?

[TLOZ Link5]

Is he going to end up like Theo Van Gogh?

I'm sure the distinct possibility exists.

[lofter1]

Some Israelis come up with another idea ...

Israeli group announces anti-Semitic cartoons contest! (http://boomka.org/blog/?p=1)



A Danish paper publishes a cartoon that mocks Muslims.


An Iranian paper responds with a Holocaust cartoons contest

Now a group of Israelis announce their own anti-Semitic cartoons contest!


Amitai Sandy (29), graphic artist and publisher of Dimona Comix (http://www.dimonacomix.com/) Publishing, from Tel-Aviv, Israel, has followed the unfolding of the “Muhammad cartoon-gate” events in amazement, until finally he came up with the right answer to all this insanity - and so he announced today the launch of a new anti-Semitic cartoons contest - this time drawn by Jews themselves!

“We’ll show the world we can do the best, sharpest, most offensive Jew hating cartoons ever published!” said Sandy “No Iranian will beat us on our home turf!”

The contest has been announced today on the www.boomka.org (http://www.boomka.org/) website, and the initiator accept submissions of cartoons, caricatures and short comic strips from people all over the world. The deadline is Sunday March 5, and the best works will be displayed in an Exhibition in Tel-Aviv, Israel.

Sandy is now in the process of arranging sponsorships of large organizations, and promises lucrative prizes for the winners, including of course the famous Matzo-bread baked with the blood of Christian children.

***

[BrooklynRider]

You know, in a way it is really a brilliant idea.

[GVNY]

I most definitely agree. I think it is one of thhose..." why didn't I think of that" moments.

[ablarc]

Muslims need to have a suicide-bomber cartoon contest.

[ablarc]

Religion of Peace deplores Western violence…


Nine Die in Cartoon Protests in Libya

By RIAZ KHAN, Associated Press

PESHAWAR, Pakistan - A Pakistani cleric announced a $1 million bounty for killing a cartoonist who drew the Prophet Muhammad. In Libya, a demonstration against the caricatures left the Italian consulate on fire and at least nine people dead, according to an Italian diplomat.

Denmark, where a newspaper first published the cartoons, temporarily closed its embassy in Pakistan and advised its citizens to leave the country.

An Italian consular official, Antonio Simoes-Concalves, said nine protesters had been killed in the demonstration in the Libyan city of Bengazi as armed police fired bullets and tear gas on a crowd of more than 1,000 demonstrators.

Libyan security officials said 11 people had been killed or wounded, but gave no breakdown.

"They are still continually firing," Simoes-Concalves said late Friday, speaking by telephone from inside the consulate where he was holed up. "They haven't managed to block them."

The Italian Foreign Ministry confirmed that the first floor of the consulate had been set on fire after the crowd charged into the grounds late Friday.

Libyan state television showed firefighters trying to put out the fire, ambulances taking casualties away from the scene and five cars that were severely damaged in the riot.

Security officials said the demonstrators hurled stones and bottles at the consulate, and later entered the grounds and set fire to the building and a consular car.

Police fired shots to try to disperse the crowd, the officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity as they were not authorized to speak to the press.

No Italians were injured, the Italian Foreign Ministry said.

In Pakistan, Mohammed Yousaf Qureshi announced the bounty for killing a cartoonist to about 1,000 people outside the historic Mohabat Khan mosque in the northwestern city of Peshawar.

He said the mosque and the religious school he leads would give a $25,000 reward and a car for killing the cartoonist who drew the caricatures — considered blasphemous by Muslims. He said a local jewelers' association would also give $1 million, but no representative of the association was available to confirm the offer.

"Whoever has done this despicable and shameful act, he has challenged the honor of Muslims. Whoever will kill this cursed man, he will get $1 million dollars from the association of the jewelers bazaar, one million rupees ($16,700) from Masjid Mohabat Khan and 500,000 rupees ($8,350) and a car from Jamia Ashrafia as a reward," Qureshi said.

"This is a unanimous decision of by all imams of Islam that whoever insults the prophets deserves to be killed and whoever will take this insulting man to his end, will get this prize," he said.

Qureshi did not name any cartoonist in his announcement and he did not appear aware that 12 different people had drawn the pictures.

A Danish newspaper, Jyllands-Posten, first printed the prophet pictures in September. The newspaper has since apologized to Muslims for the cartoons, one of which shows Muhammad wearing a bomb-shaped turban. Other Western newspapers, mostly in Europe, have reprinted the pictures, asserting their news value and the right to freedom of expression.

In Denmark, a spokesman for the Jyllands-Posten declined comment on the bounty offer. But Mogens Blicher Bjerregaard, president of the Danish Journalist Union and spokesman for the cartoonists, condemned it.

"It is totally absurd what is happening. The cartoonists just did their job and they did nothing illegal," he said.

He said the cartoonists — who have been living under police protection since last year — are aware of the reward and are "feeling bad about the whole situation." He did not say whether their security had been stepped up.

Unrest over the cartoons has spiraled in Pakistan. Riots in Lahore and Peshawar this week caused millions of dollars in damage. Hundreds of vehicles were burned and protesters targeted U.S. and other foreign businesses. Five people were killed.

Intelligence officials have said scores of members of radical and militant Islamic groups joined the protests in Lahore on Tuesday and incited violence in a bid to undermine President Gen. Pervez Musharraf's government, a close ally of the United States.

On Friday, police confined the leader of the militant group Jamaat al-Dawat, Hafiz Mohammed Saeed, to his home to stop him from addressing supporters in the city of Faisalabad, about 75 miles away, his spokesman Yahya Mujahid said.

A senior police official in Lahore who confirmed Saeed's detention said the government had ordered police to restrict the movement of all religious leaders who might address rallies and to round up religious activists "who could be any threat to law and order."

The official spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter.

In Islamabad, visiting former President Bill Clinton criticized the cartoons but said Muslims wasted an opportunity to build better ties with the West by holding violent protests.

"I can tell you, most people in the United States deeply respect Islam ... and most people in Europe do," he said.

Denmark, meanwhile, said it had temporarily closed its embassy in Pakistan and urged Danes to leave the country. Last week, Denmark temporarily shut its embassies in Lebanon, Syria, Iran and Indonesia.

In neighboring India, police used batons and tear gas to disperse thousands of angry worshippers who rioted in the southern city of Hyderabad. Hundreds more protested in Bangladesh.

[lofter1]

Cartoon Protests
I'm seeing Lucy & Linus with their fists in the air ...

Archie & Jughead holding aloft a large banner ...

Dick Tracy monitoring the protest with his wrist radio ...

[ZippyTheChimp]

In three or four hundred years, everyone on earth will think their ancestors were complete idiots.

[Fabrizio]

The Italian Consalate in Lybia was set aflame because an idiot Italian politician went on TV here wearing a t-shirt with one of the cartoons printed on it.

These arab contries are populated by dirt-poor ignorant pawns.... is that news in the West? And this is what dirt-poor ignorant pawns do to protest.Is that some sort of surprise?

If tommorow the Alabama Sun Times (or whatever) decided to run daily cartoons about Jews and blacks.... what dear friends would the out-come be?

Please let me know.

Perhaps the protest against them would be more sophisticated than burning down the newspapers headquarters ....perhaps.... but a protest there would be. ( uh....oh wait a minute.... aren´t´churches in the South still being burned.... and weren´t there race riots in the US in the 60´s where entire zones of cities were burned down.... what´s the difference folks?)

In a very recent past.... only 60 years or so ago.... the masses of Germany were instigated enough to allow and participate in the stermination of Jews .... so we are somehow surprised that the ignorant populations of these Arab counties are doing what they´re doing?

Those cartoons never should´ve been published.... that NOT freedom of speach... it means nothing.

[ablarc]

Those cartoons never should&#180;ve been published...
That's not hard to agree with...like "you shouldn't fart in elevators" or "you shouldn't get knocked up" --lamentable but not illegal events. Folks should be motivated by courtesy and good sense.

But once courtesy or good sense have been violated, I don't want a death squad to come after me for farting in the elevator or some Bushie telling me my daughter can't have an abortion.

If there are no more cartoons lampooning Mohammed it'll be for fear of getting killed. Being motivated by that, pretty clearly, is succumbing to terror; and it's not a stretch that those mobs are terrorists, folks who want to influence events by threatening and carrying out acts of violence. And if there are no more cartoons you can probably take that as evidence that terrorism works.

[lofter1]

Russian Muslim Leader Calls For Violent Protests Against Gay Pride Parade

(Moscow) The leader of Russia's Muslims on Tuesday called for a "violent mass protest" if gay leaders go ahead with Pride celebrations this spring.

Gay Russia is planning a pride parade in the Russian capital on May 27, 2006 despite warnings from the city's mayor that a permit will not be granted. (story (http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/07/072905Moscow.htm))
Russia's first gay parade vetoed by 'outraged' city

By Andrew Osborn in Moscow
17 February 2006

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article345947.ece

Plans to stage Russia's first gay pride parade have been vetoed by Moscow's city government on the grounds that the idea has caused "outrage" in society.

Mayor Yuri Luzhkov's administration said yesterday it would not even consider an application for a parade, prompting Russia's gay community to threaten legal action in the European Court of Human Rights.

Gay and lesbian activists have been campaigning for permission to stage the country's first gay pride event on Saturday 27 May.

The date marks the 13th anniversary of the decriminalisation of homosexuality in Russia in 1993. But the plans have drawn a furious reaction from religious leaders and been condemned as "suicidal" by other gay activists .

Earlier this week Chief Mufti Talgat Tadzhuddin warned that Russia's Muslims would stage violent protests if the march went ahead. "If they come out on to the streets anyway they should be flogged. Any normal person would do that - Muslims and Orthodox Christians alike ... [The protests] might be even more intense than protests abroad against those controversial cartoons."

The cleric said the Koran taught that homosexuals should be killed because their lifestyle spells the extinction of the human race and said that gays had no human rights.

The Russian Orthodox Church has called it "the propaganda of sin". Bishop Daniil of Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk yesterday condemned the plans as a "cynical mockery" and likened homosexuality to leprosy.

The mayor's spokesman, Sergei Tsoi, said a parade would not be allowed. "[The plans] have caused outrage in society, particularly among religious leaders," he said.

In the Communist era Russian homosexuals were jailed for five years and their "condition" was classed as a mental disorder. In post-Soviet Russia public acceptance of homosexuality has been glacial. An opinion poll last year showed 43 per cent of Russians believed gay men should be incarcerated.

Nikolai Alekseev, head of GayRussia.Ru and one of the parade organisers, said banning such meetings was a criminal offence. He said the organisers were considering going to the European Court of Human Rights. Preparations will continue and an official application will be made in May.

© 2006 Independent News and Media Limited

[Fabrizio]

Ablarc:

"If there are no more cartoons lampooning Mohammed it'll be for fear of getting killed".

In the US why aren&#180;t there cartoons lampooning Jews?

Why not a sit-com in black-face?

What&#180;s the fear?

".....folks who want to influence events by threatening and carrying out acts of violence".

Like the race riots in the US during the 60&#180;s?

Taunting Arabs with sarcastic images that would NEVER fly in the west is stupid... and it&#180;s a double standard.

[ablarc]

Fabrizio, you haven't answered my post.

Do I see a straw man lying on the ground?

Your arguments are variations on a familiar theme: since we're not perfect, we're worse than our adversaries. Sounds like BR. ;)

Race riots in the Sixties? Aw, c'mon, let's not leave out slavery a hundred years before that.

Living in the past is not realistic, whether you believe in progress or not. What's available to live in is the future and its immediate extension, the present. :)

[Fabrizio]

Ablarc: Ok, point by point ( and I really gotta get some work done at this computer today....) :

"Folks should be motivated by courtesy and good sense".

Agreed.

"But once courtesy or good sense have been violated, I don't want a death squad to come after me for farting in the elevator or some Bushie telling me my daughter can't have an abortion".

Agreed.

"If there are no more cartoons lampooning Mohammed it'll be for fear of getting killed".

Agreed. It will be out of fear of getting killed.... when it should be out of "courtesy and good sense".

People today have the "coutesy and good sense" not to print cartoons lampooning certain ethnic groups and religions.

But that "courtesy and good sense" did not come easily.... it was not born over night...it came about becuse of THE PROTESTS of those being lampooned.

These protests are not pretty.... but it&#180;s what powerless, poor, ignorant people without power do. They "burn, baby burn" and throw rocks.

I&#180;ve seen it somewhere before.

BTW: Just curious... in the "Anything goes" forum here, if I had posted some racist cartoons ( before this incident in Denmark), do you think they would&#180;ve been eliminated... and me banned, or not.

Just curious.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Churches in Alabama are being burned by criminals, and to my knowledge, no state or religious group has offered a bounty for more churches to be burned, or a closer parallel to the cartoon controversy, a bounty for those burning the churches to be killed on the spot.

[ZippyTheChimp]

BTW: Just curious... in the "Anything goes" forum here, if I had posted some racist cartoons ( before this incident in Denmark), do you think they would´ve been eliminated... and me banned, or not.

Just curious.
This forum is the property of Edward,and he decides what he wants to allow.

Regardless of my opinions concerning the cartoons, I would never wear one of those T-shirts to the home of one of my Muslim friends.

[JMGarcia]

I don't consider the cartoons racist. They are about religion and politics, not race and I think that is an important difference.

Having said that, I've seen plenty of satire, some of it quite insulting, about just about every religion and ideology. There were no death threats and people weren't killed in violent protest.

I'd also like to re-iterate that these cartoons were shown in middle eastern newspapers months before all this happened. This is not about the cartoons themselves. They are an excuse for an exersize in political demagoguery and xenophobic hate mongering in the muslim world.

[JMGarcia]

On a parrallel thought, consider the bile and hatred eminating out of the muslim world against the west. We generally shrug it off and hardly call them all racist pigs, much less call for the death of those printing and broadcasting it.

[Fabrizio]

" I've seen plenty of satire, some of it quite insulting, about just about every religion and ideology. There were no death threats and people weren't killed in violent protest."

I&#180;m Italian. I find "the Sopranos" funny. It&#180;s big hit here. And our stand-comics have plenty of jokes about the Vatican. No one cares. I wish everyone was like that ...but other peoples have different reactions to such satire. Try doing something similair to other ethnic groups... and you will see.... the US is the most "politically correct" country in the world.... why? So as not to offend. Why not offend?.... because you&#180;ll pay for it. Perhaps not by being murdered .... but you&#180;ll pay for it. These Arabs burning and throwing rocks... that&#180;s what poor powerless people do.... and their politicians and religious leaders using fear mongering?.... we&#180;ll that&#180;s what politicians do.

[ablarc]

I´m Italian. I find "the Sopranos" funny. It´s big hit here. And our stand-comics have plenty of jokes about the Vatican. No one cares. I wish everyone was like that ...but other peoples have different reactions to such satire. Try doing something similair to other ethnic groups... and you will see.... the US is the most "politically correct" country in the world.... why? So as not to offend. Why not offend?.... because you´ll pay for it. Perhaps not by being murdered .... but you´ll pay for it.
That's right, folks are just different in different places. I don't know why we're bent out of shape about Osama bin Laden; what he does is just his way of making a point. If we can't respect it at least we could learn to tolerate it.

[Fabrizio]

Our strawmen are down at the bar having a drink. Cheers.

[ablarc]

Our strawmen are down at the bar having a drink. Cheers.
LOL!!!

[JMGarcia]

These Arabs burning and throwing rocks... that´s what poor powerless people do.... and their politicians and religious leaders using fear mongering?.... we´ll that´s what politicians do.

...and they are wrong for doing it. I don't personally subscribe to that type of moral relatism.

[Fabrizio]

So let me reiterate:.... my point is: that now some Euoropean papers reprinting the cartoons... and this idiot-clown politician from my own country wearing a t-shirt ....is just stupidity. The Denmark paper should´ve appologized from the beginning.... just as papers apologize ALL the time for "offending" others. Listen, I read an article in the NYTimes (I think it was the Times) a few weeks ago about the movie critic for the Today show calling the Jack Twist charachter in "Brokeback Mountain" a "sexual predator"... gay groups protested and he had to give an apology on the air. Ok, the fags didn´t murder him, but they protested and he had to change his tune.

[Fabrizio]

This just in:


Italian Official Quits in Strife Over Cartoons

By IAN FISHER

Published: February 19, 2006

TURIN, Italy, Feb. 18 — A day after at least 11 people were killed in Libya amid continuing violence over the Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad, an Italian government minister resigned Saturday for wearing a T-shirt printed with the cartoons.

The protesters in Libya, angry over the minister's T-shirt, had stormed an Italian Consulate in Benghazi on Friday and were fired on by Libyan soldiers. Here in Italy, critics of Roberto Calderoli, the reforms minister who showed off his T-shirt on television earlier this week, blamed him for the violence — and even his own political allies, including Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, demanded his resignation.

------------------------------
Good. I´m glad. Idiot.

[ablarc]

I've heard it said that all sins are equal in the eyes of God. If that's so, then farting in the elevator is as bad as killing those folks in the WTC. And publishing a satirical cartoon that gives offense (do any satirical cartoons not give offense?) is no less bad than putting up a million bucks to have someone killed.

But is that really so?

[ablarc]

...critics of Roberto Calderoli, the reforms minister who showed off his T-shirt on television earlier this week, blamed him for the violence — and even his own political allies, including Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, demanded his resignation.

------------------------------
Good. I&#180;m glad. Idiot.
...and Gavrilo Princip caused World War I.

From time to time, Berlusconi himself finds himself classed as an idiot.

Our own particular idiot could be using this as an opportunity to mend our frayed bridges to Europe.

[lofter1]

I've heard it said that all sins are equal in the eyes of God. If that's so, then farting in the elevator is as bad as killing those folks in the WTC.
Since when is farting a sin?

Burping, too?

[ablarc]

^ A sin is anything you do that leaves the world a worse place. Losing your car keys is a sin.

If you're together and walking on the path you don't do such things.

[ablarc]

Burping, too?
Not in China, after a meal.

In this neck of the woods, you can repent immediately with an "excuse me."

[Fabrizio]

So it WAS you in the elevator! Careful, Ablarc..... I think the co-op board is on to you.

[ablarc]

.
More cartoon violence...


At Least 15 Die in Nigeria Cartoon Protest

By NJADVARA MUSA, Associated Press

MAIDUGURI, Nigeria - Nigerian Muslims protesting caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad attacked Christians and burned churches on Saturday, killing at least 15 people in the deadliest confrontation yet in the whirlwind of Muslim anger over the drawings.

It was the first major protest to erupt over the issue in Africa's most populous nation. An Associated Press reporter saw mobs of Muslim protesters swarm through the city center with machetes, sticks and iron rods. One group threw a tire around a man, poured gas on him and set him ablaze.

Thousands of rioters burned 15 churches in Maiduguri in a three-hour rampage before troops and police reinforcements restored order, Nigerian police spokesman Haz Iwendi said. Iwendi said security forces arrested dozens of people in the city about 1,000 miles northeast of the capital, Lagos.

Chima Ezeoke, a Christian Maiduguri resident, said protesters attacked and looted shops owned by minority Christians, most of them with origins in the country's south.

"Most of the dead were Christians beaten to death on the streets by the rioters," Ezeoke said. Witnesses said three children and a priest were among those killed.

Nigeria, with a population of more than 130 million, is roughly divided between a predominantly Muslim north and a mainly Christian south.

Thousands have died in this West African country since 2000 in religious violence fueled by the adoption of the strict Islamic legal code by a dozen states in the north, seen by most Christians as a move to impose religious hegemony on non-Muslims.

With Saturday's deaths, at least 45 people have been killed in protests across the Muslim world, according to a count by The Associated Press.

[Edward]

Here is my brief opinion on the issue: this is not a spontaneous protest by the poor outraged Muslims, this protest is organized by governments of the arab countries - it all started after the Mecca meeting in December. And the reason is that the governments of the Arab countries want to direct attention of the people away from unemployment and corrupt bureaucracy and somewhere else - towards the West, as an easy target.

So any kind of cartoon counter-contest or talking about cultural sensitivities is completely besides the point - it's a carefully organized political action.

[JMGarcia]

^Bingo.

[ablarc]

Here is my brief opinion on the issue: this is not a spontaneous protest by the poor outraged Muslims, this protest is organized by governments of the arab countries - it all started after the Mecca meeting in December. And the reason is that the governments of the Arab countries want to direct attention of the people away from unemployment and corrupt bureaucracy and somewhere else - towards the West, as an easy target.

So any kind of cartoon counter-contest or talking about cultural sensitivities is completely besides the point - it's a carefully organized political action.
If this is true, it's hard to escape the conclusion that the folks who participate in these demonstrations are fools. Fools for turning themselves into pawns of their silly governments, fools for placing themselves in the line of fire of their own country's troops, and fools for allowing themselves to be turned into murderers, as in Nigeria. Or is it not tragic in the Muslim world to become a killer?

Maybe it's not so tragic. The longer it goes on the more it becomes comical. Maybe it's fitting that the mcguffin is cartoons.

This is all supposed to be about respect. If that's the case people shouldn't turn themselves into such clowns. This is fitting grist for Saturday night comedy. Or Gilbert and Sullivan.

Maybe it's time we stopped taking these folks so seriously.

[ZippyTheChimp]

In years of trying to figure out the politics of the Middle East, I've come to the conclusion that it boils down to a struggle among national/religious groups to demonstrate which one is the most Islamic, and thus worthy to represent the entire religion. This struggle predates the discovery of huge oil reserves in Arabia in 1938.

In the 18th century, Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Abd_al_Wahhab) founded a movement called Wahhabism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahabi), a movement that advocates strict interpretation of the Quran, and rejects some of the practices of Shi'a Islam and Sufism as corrupt and non-Islamic.

From Wikipedia:

Muhammed Ibn Abd Al-Wahhab forged a pact with Najd chieftain Muhammad Ibn Saud, ensuring that regions conquered by the Saudi tribe would be ruled according to Ibn 'Abd Al-Wahhab's peculiar teachings on Islam. Ibn Saud and his heirs would spend the next 140 years mounting various military campaigns to seize control of Arabia and its outlying regions. The most successful of these, backed by British support, would establish the present-day Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, providing the Wahhabi movement with a state. Vast wealth from oil discovered in the following decades, coupled with Saudi - and thus Wahhabi - control of the holy cities of Mecca and Medina, have since fueled Wahhabi missionary activity. With Saudi treasure at their disposal, the Wahhabi muftis and imams who hold monopoly control over the nation's Islamic jurisprudence and serve as arbiters of acceptable social practice in the Kingdom have waged a successful campaign of proselytization abroad through the establishment of madrassas that teach the Wahhabi interpretation of Islam.

The Wahhabi al-Saud dynasty (Saudi royal family) took control of Mecca and Medina in 1924. The subsequent oil-wealth and relationships with the industrialized world, and the tendency of the royal family to run to places like Paris and Las Vegas when the tedium of fundamentalism became too much for them, led to the present Faustian bargain they made with Wahhabism. A outwardly-appearing industrialized country with a military equipped with the latest American hardware, is also almost a feudal state, where Wahhabi schools preach Death-to-America (and let's not forget driving the Israelis into the sea).

Conflicts such as the Iran-Iraq war and the present civil war in Iraq are polical struggles by ambitious leaders, but the rallying-cries are religious.

The move by Iran toward nuclear weapons may worry the West, but I'm sure it terrifies the Saudis. As keepers of the holy cities, the Saudis have responsibility for the peace of the Hajj. In a region of long memory, I don't think the Persian Shiite Iranians have forgotten the pilgrimage in 1987, when 400 Iranians were killed.

[ablarc]

^ Byzantine.

[ZippyTheChimp]

http://www.newyorker.com/

COMMENT

IMAGES

by Jane Kramer

Issue of 2006-02-27
Posted 2006-02-20

Last week, with Muslims rioting, and dying, because of twelve cartoons about the Prophet published in a Copenhagen newspaper nearly five months earlier, Italy’s blithely oblivious Prime Minister, Silvio Berlusconi, compared himself (and not for the first time) to Jesus. “I am the Jesus Christ of politics, a patient victim,” he announced to a roomful of Italian moguls. “I put up with everything.” He might have said “Muhammad,” since, after the riots stop and the boycotts against Denmark fizzle, the patient victim of the Danish cartoon crisis will certainly be the Prophet, put to mockery by the West and to another round of violent political uses by his own people.

By now, the story behind the crisis is fairly clear, although the questions it raises about the claims of literalism and liberalism on a global village of angry neighbors are far from settled. But it is also clear that there are many ways to tell that story, and many moments at which it could be said to properly begin. You could start with the Koran—for Muslims, the words of Allah dictated to Muhammad. The Koran says that there can be “nothing like a likeness” of God, but in fact it makes no reference to images of the prophet to whom the interdiction was revealed. (It is the Hadith, Islam’s early narrative, that forbids the faithful to represent him.) And, as Islam spread to Persia and India, civilizations with strong representational traditions, artists did paint him, and the faithful used those paintings in ecstatic devotions. As late as the nineteenth century, Persians were still producing pardehs—huge storytelling canvases—depicting the battle of Karbala and as often as not ending with an image of the Prophet on his horse, his face now hidden by a cloth, ascending to Heaven.

Or you could start the story in 1989, with the fatwa against Salman Rushdie, or with the murder of the filmmaker Theo van Gogh, in Holland, in the fall of 2004, because those were the first important contemporary instances of Islamist threats against free speech in the secular democracies of the West. Or you could start the story where it officially began, in Denmark, in the summer of 2005, when a children’s-book writer looking for an illustrator to collaborate on a book about Islam for Danish schoolchildren was turned down by everyone he asked, on the ground that the project was too “dangerous.” By September, his problem had made its way into the liberal Copenhagen daily Politiken, and was promptly co-opted by the conservative daily Jyllands-Posten, whose arts editor—now on “indefinite leave”—asked forty artists to “test the limits of expression” by drawing pictures of Muhammad. Twelve did. The exercise was insensitive, provocative, and arguably imprudent, if for no other reason than that Denmark had spent considerable time and patience on courting Middle Eastern markets. (It stands to lose $1.6 billion in export revenues this year, and one Danish company is already losing $1.7 million a day.) But there was never much argument at home about the newspaper’s right to publish the cartoons.

Nor was there any real violence on the part of the two hundred thousand Muslims who live in Denmark; a few thousand demonstrated peacefully in October to protest the cartoons, and some groups filed a criminal complaint against the paper in a local court. There was not even much of a reaction in the Muslim world, which got its first look at the cartoons in mid-October, when Al Fagr, an Egyptian paper, reprinted six of them, one on its front page. Eleven Muslim ambassadors to Denmark did request a meeting with the ordinarily outspoken, conservative Prime Minister, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, but they were turned down, and most people in Denmark, perhaps even the ambassadors, assumed that was the end of it.

Moderate Danish Muslims allowed that the cartoons were offensive to them—offensive and bland. But many also allowed that the two “most offensive”—the Prophet with a bomb nesting in his turban; the Prophet on a cloud, calling out to a line of suicide bombers, “Stop, stop, we’re running out of virgins”—could be read as comments on the manipulation of the faithful by the kind of extremists they themselves had every reason to fear. They were right. In December, a radical imam from one of Copenhagen’s outlying mosques put together a forty-three-page scrapbook of caricatures involving the Prophet (including the twelve cartoons and a couple of images that were, by anyone’s standards, vicious), and sent it off to Egypt, where it began an agitprop tour of the Middle East. A month later, Magazinet, a small Norwegian paper close to the Christian right, reprinted the Danish cartoons. After that, the story became the crisis. Ten thousand Muslims demonstrated in Gaza, then twenty thousand in Lebanon, then more than a hundred thousand in Pakistan. The demonstrations became riots, and more than thirty people have died.

There are twenty-five million Muslims—immigrant workers, their wives, children, and grandchildren—in Western Europe. Most of the original workers were recruited as migrant labor in the boom years of the nineteen-sixties. They were barely welcomed beyond the cheerfully forced ministrations of church groups and social workers, but in most places the assumption was that, after a couple of generations, some sort of assimilation would be inevitable. It was a realistic assumption, but reality changed. An oil crisis happened, unemployment happened, September 11th happened, the war in Iraq happened, and the anti-immigrant backlash—once the province of Europe’s orthodox Communists and its far right—became an undercurrent of liberal opinion. Most important, the Internet revolution happened, and, with it, jihadist recruitment began in earnest, telling a new generation of European Muslims that the only true assimilation was to militant Islam. That generation became the flashpoint of a battle that had little to do with its members’ lives, or with their very real grievances. It had to do with the Muslim power struggle in the Gulf, and the stakes were not only oil but control over the Islamic diaspora, or what you could call international Islam. It was clear to everyone involved that if the diaspora in Europe produced a modern, critical, democratic Islam, the Islamist regimes of the Middle East would begin to fall.

More than twenty-five European newspapers and magazines (and only a few major American ones) have reprinted some or all of the cartoons, arguing that people had the right to “see” what the riots and the threats and the blackmail were all about (and did not, as the Times suggested, have to accept that written descriptions were sufficient). Call it the right to pursue the news without turning that pursuit into the sort of clandestine adventure it is in so much of the Middle East. It may be that the myths of a multicultural Europe have been shattered by the Danish cartoons, not because of any “clash of civilizations” but because, in the end, while democracies recognize religious faith, and sometimes practice it, they survive only by their faith in themselves. Democracies preclude contending absolutisms and the dicta of fixed identities. They have to do with identity in flux, with culture, and cultures, constantly transforming, molting into something new—something surprising and different and open-ended and free.

[cyppok]

They should keep printing them till muslims get acclimated.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Part of me thinks just because you can print it doesn't mean you have to print it.

The point about freedom of the press has been made; there is no reason to rub it in peoples' faces.

[ablarc]

From The Economist:

Freedom of expression, including the freedom to poke fun at religion, is not just a hard-won human right but the defining freedom of liberal societies. When such a freedom comes under threat of violence, the job of governments should be to defend it without reservation.

To their credit, many politicians in continental Europe have done just that. France's interior minister, Nicholas Sarkozy, said rather magnificently that he preferred "an excess of caricature to an excess of censorship"...

In the Netherlands two years ago a film maker [Theo Van Gogh] was murdered for daring to criticise Islam. Danish journalists have received death threats. In a climate in which political correctness has morphed into fear of physical attack, showing solidarity may well be the responsible thing for a free press to do. And the decision, of course, must lie with the press, not governments.

It is no coincidence that the feeblest response to the outpouring of Muslim rage has come from Britain and America. Having sent their armies rampaging into the Muslim heartland...George Bush and Tony Blair have some making up to do with Muslims.

Long before making a drama out of the Danish cartoons, a great many Muslims had come to equate the war on terrorism with a war against Islam. This is an equation Osama bin Laden and other enemies of the West would like very much to encourage and exploit. In circumstances in which embassies are being torched, isn't denouncing the cartoons the least the West can do to show its respect for Islam, and to stave off a much-feared clash of civilisations?

No. There are many things western countries could usefully say and do to ease relations with Islam, but shutting up their own newspapers is not one of them.

People who feel that they are not free to give voice to their worries about terrorism, globalisation or the encroachment of new cultures or religions will not love their neighbors any better. If anything, the opposite is the case: people need to let off steam.

Freedom of expression is not just a pillar of western democracy, as sacred in its own way as Muhammad is to pious muslims. It is also a freedom that millions of Muslims have come to enjoy or to aspire to themselves.

Ultimately, spreading and strengthening it may be one of the best hopes for avoiding the incomprehension that can lead civilisations into conflict.

[lofter1]

OK, one MAY publish.

But one must look at the reasoning behind publishing -- rather than viewing the act from a political position, examine it from the moral position.

The right to do something must often be coupled with the possible effects that the action will have on others.

In this case -- where the Danish publisher had chosen NOT to publish certain cartoons which lampooned the crucifixion out of concern that viewers / readers would be outraged / be hurt / not buy newspapers -- the choice to publish cartoons which lampooned Mohammed seems to have both a double standard and wobbly moral base.

None of which justifies the violence seen in some of the reactions -- or the use of these events by certain leaders to pump up their constituents.

All in all, this is another lesson that it is harder to live together on this planet than one might imagine when viewing the world from one's own limited perspective.

And -- since we all know that every action has a reaction -- that examining one's actions and weighing the consequences before moving ahead is rarely a bad thing.

[JMGarcia]

Why I Published Those Cartoons

By FLEMMING ROSE, culture editor of Jyllands-Posten

Childish. Irresponsible. Hate speech. A provocation just for the sake of provocation. A PR stunt. Critics of 12 cartoons of the prophet Muhammad published in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten have not minced their words. They say that freedom of expression does not imply an endorsement of insulting people's religious feelings, and besides, they add, the media censor themselves every day. So, please do not teach us a lesson about limitless freedom of speech.

I agree that the freedom to publish things doesn't mean you publish everything. Jyllands-Posten would not publish pornographic images or graphic details of dead bodies; swear words rarely make it into our pages. So we are not fundamentalists in our support for freedom of expression.

But the cartoon story is different.

Those examples have to do with exercising restraint because of ethical standards and taste; call it editing. By contrast, I commissioned the cartoons in response to several incidents of self-censorship in Europe caused by widening fears and feelings of intimidation in dealing with issues related to Islam. And I still believe that this is a topic that we Europeans must confront, challenging moderate Muslims to speak out. The idea wasn't to provoke gratuitously -- and we certainly didn't intend to trigger violent demonstrations throughout the Muslim world. Our goal was simply to push back self-imposed limits on expression that seemed to be closing in tighter.

At the end of September, a Danish standup comedian said in an interview with Jyllands-Posten that he had no problem urinating on the Bible in front of a camera, but he dared not do the same thing with the Koran.

This was the culmination of a series of disturbing instances of self-censorship. Last September, a Danish children's writer had trouble finding an illustrator for a book about the life of Muhammad. Three people turned down the job for fear of consequences. The person who finally accepted insisted on anonymity, which in my book is a form of self-censorship. European translators of a critical book about Islam also did not want their names to appear on the book cover beside the name of the author, a Somalia-born Dutch politician who has herself been in hiding.

Around the same time, the Tate gallery in London withdrew an installation by the avant-garde artist John Latham depicting the Koran, Bible and Talmud torn to pieces. The museum explained that it did not want to stir things up after the London bombings. (A few months earlier, to avoid offending Muslims, a museum in Goteborg, Sweden, had removed a painting with a sexual motif and a quotation from the Koran.)

Finally, at the end of September, Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen met with a group of imams, one of whom called on the prime minister to interfere with the press in order to get more positive coverage of Islam.

So, over two weeks we witnessed a half-dozen cases of self-censorship, pitting freedom of speech against the fear of confronting issues about Islam. This was a legitimate news story to cover, and Jyllands-Posten decided to do it by adopting the well-known journalistic principle: Show it, don't tell it. I wrote to members of the association of Danish cartoonists asking them "to draw Muhammad as you see him." We certainly did not ask them to make fun of the prophet. Twelve out of 25 active members responded.

We have a tradition of satire when dealing with the royal family and other public figures, and that was reflected in the cartoons. The cartoonists treated Islam the same way they treat Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism and other religions. And by treating Muslims in Denmark as equals they made a point: We are integrating you into the Danish tradition of satire because you are part of our society, not strangers. The cartoons are including, rather than excluding, Muslims.

The cartoons do not in any way demonize or stereotype Muslims. In fact, they differ from one another both in the way they depict the prophet and in whom they target. One cartoon makes fun of Jyllands-Posten, portraying its cultural editors as a bunch of reactionary provocateurs.

Another suggests that the children's writer who could not find an illustrator for his book went public just to get cheap publicity. A third puts the head of the anti-immigration Danish People's Party in a lineup, as if she is a suspected criminal.

One cartoon -- depicting the prophet with a bomb in his turban -- has drawn the harshest criticism. Angry voices claim the cartoon is saying that the prophet is a terrorist or that every Muslim is a terrorist. I read it differently: Some individuals have taken the religion of Islam hostage by committing terrorist acts in the name of the prophet. They are the ones who have given the religion a bad name. The cartoon also plays into the fairy tale about Aladdin and the orange that fell into his turban and made his fortune. This suggests that the bomb comes from the outside world and is not an inherent characteristic of the prophet.

On occasion, Jyllands-Posten has refused to print satirical cartoons of Jesus, but not because it applies a double standard. In fact, the same cartoonist who drew the image of Muhammed with a bomb in his turban drew a cartoon with Jesus on the cross having dollar notes in his eyes and another with the star of David attached to a bomb fuse. There were, however, no embassy burnings or death threats when we published those.

Has Jyllands-Posten insulted and disrespected Islam? It certainly didn't intend to. But what does respect mean? When I visit a mosque, I show my respect by taking off my shoes. I follow the customs, just as I do in a church, synagogue or other holy place. But if a believer demands that I, as a nonbeliever, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect, but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy.

This is exactly why Karl Popper, in his seminal work "The Open Society and Its Enemies," insisted that one should not be tolerant with the intolerant. Nowhere do so many religions coexist peacefully as in a democracy where freedom of expression is a fundamental right. In Saudi Arabia, you can get arrested for wearing a cross or having a Bible in your suitcase, while Muslims in secular Denmark can have their own mosques, cemeteries, schools, TV and radio stations.

I acknowledge that some people have been offended by the publication of the cartoons, and Jyllands-Posten has apologized for that. But we cannot apologize for our right to publish material, even offensive material. You cannot edit a newspaper if you are paralyzed by worries about every possible insult. I am offended by things in the paper every day: transcripts of speeches by Osama bin Laden, photos from Abu Ghraib, people insisting that Israel should be erased from the face of the Earth, people saying the Holocaust never happened. But that does not mean that I would refrain from printing them as long as they fell within the limits of the law and of the newspaper's ethical code. That other editors would make different choices is the essence of pluralism.

As a former correspondent in the Soviet Union, I am sensitive about calls for censorship on the grounds of insult. This is a popular trick of totalitarian movements: Label any critique or call for debate as an insult and punish the offenders. That is what happened to human rights activists and writers such as Andrei Sakharov, Vladimir Bukovsky, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, Natan Sharansky, Boris Pasternak. The regime accused them of anti-Soviet propaganda, just as some Muslims are labeling 12 cartoons in a Danish newspaper anti-Islamic.

The lesson from the Cold War is: If you give in to totalitarian impulses once, new demands follow. The West prevailed in the Cold War because we stood by our fundamental values and did not appease totalitarian tyrants.

Since the Sept. 30 publication of the cartoons, we have had a constructive debate in Denmark and Europe about freedom of expression, freedom of religion and respect for immigrants and people's beliefs. Never before have so many Danish Muslims participated in a public dialogue -- in town hall meetings, letters to editors, opinion columns and debates on radio and TV. We have had no anti-Muslim riots, no Muslims fleeing the country and no Muslims committing violence. The radical imams who misinformed their counterparts in the Middle East about the situation for Muslims in Denmark have been marginalized. They no longer speak for the Muslim community in Denmark because moderate Muslims have had the courage to speak out against them.

In January, Jyllands-Posten ran three full pages of interviews and photos of moderate Muslims saying no to being represented by the imams. They insist that their faith is compatible with a modern secular democracy.

A network of moderate Muslims committed to the constitution has been established, and the anti-immigration People's Party called on its members to differentiate between radical and moderate Muslims, i.e. between Muslims propagating sharia law and Muslims accepting the rule of secular law. The Muslim face of Denmark has changed, and it is becoming clear that this is not a debate between "them" and "us," but between those committed to
democracy in Denmark and those who are not.

This is the sort of debate that Jyllands-Posten had hoped to generate when it chose to test the limits of self-censorship by calling on cartoonists to challenge a Muslim taboo. Did we achieve our purpose? Yes and no. Some of the spirited defenses of our freedom of expression have been inspiring. But tragic demonstrations throughout the Middle East and Asia were not what we anticipated much less desired. Moreover, the newspaper has received 104 registered threats, 10 people have been arrested, cartoonists have been forced into hiding because of threats against their lives and Jyllands-Posten's headquarters have been evacuated several times due to bomb threats. This is hardly a climate for easing self-censorship.

Still, I think the cartoons now have a place in two separate narratives, one in Europe and one in the Middle East. In the words of the Somali-born Dutch politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the integration of Muslims into European societies has been sped up by 300 years due to the cartoons; perhaps we do not need to fight the battle for the Enlightenment all over again in Europe. The narrative in the Middle East is more complex, but that has very little to do with the cartoons.

http://www.jp.dk/english_news/artikel:aid=3566642/

[lofter1]

Submissions for the Anti-Semitic Cartoons Contest ( http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=83557&postcount=85 ) are being posted: http://www.boomka.org/

Here's one ...

http://www.boomka.org/entries/moses-daniel-higgins-s.jpg

[Fabrizio]

From the article posted by JM Garcia:

"....By contrast, I commissioned the cartoons in response to several incidents of self-censorship in Europe caused by widening fears and feelings of intimidation in dealing with issues related to Islam."


To this in todays NYTimes:


Austria Imposes 3-Year Sentence on Notorious Holocaust Denier

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: February 21, 2006

VIENNA, Feb. 20 (AP):

"The British historian David Irving on Monday PLEADED GUILTY to denying the Holocaust and was sentenced to THREE YEARS IN PRISON. He conceded that he was wrong when he said there were no Nazi gas chambers at the Auschwitz death camp".

"Mr. Irving, 67, has been in custody since Nov. 11, when he was arrested in the southern province of Styria on charges stemming from TWO SPEECHES he gave in Austria in 1989 in which he was accused of denying the Nazis' annihilation of six million Jews".

[lofter1]

2nd Russian Paper Shut in Cartoon Furor

By STEVEN LEE MYERS (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/m/steven_lee_myers/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
NY Times
Feb. 21, 2006

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/21/international/europe/21russia.html

MOSCOW, Feb. 20 — The owner of a small Russian weekly that printed a composite of the Danish cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad said Monday that he would close the newspaper. His was the second newspaper to close in Russia (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/russia/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) in the wake of international protests over the cartoons.

The newspaper, Our Region, based in Vologda, north of Moscow, which printed its illustration last Wednesday, was the first in Russia to publish, at least in part, the Danish cartoons. The publication prompted criticism from public officials, an apology from the local governor and a criminal investigation into the paper's activity.

The owner, Mikhail M. Smirnov, said he decided on his own to close the newspaper on Friday, even as the prosecutor general's office announced it would bring criminal charges against the paper's editor, Anna V. Smirnova.

Ms. Smirnova, who is also the owner's wife, faces charges of inciting religious animosity, a crime punishable by a maximum sentence of two to four years in prison.

Mr. Smirnov's decision followed one by Volgograd, in central Russia, to close its official newspaper after it printed a different illustration that included Muhammad, along with Moses, Jesus and Buddha. The cases reflected the sensitivity by Russian officials to any Islamic backlash and served as a measure of the limits of expression in a country where the media often endure government pressure, if not outright censorship.

Mr. Smirnov, in a telephone interview, apologized for the decision to print a version of the Danish cartoons. He added that the article with the illustration, which included commentary by religious and human rights leaders, was not intended to provoke anti-Islamic sentiments.

"My concern was about the people who worked at the newspaper, so that in the future neither the newspaper nor these people could be accused of fanning up inter-religious conflict," he said of his decision to shut the paper down.

The newspaper, part of a larger media company called Severinform, has a staff of three and a circulation of roughly 4,000.

He called the criminal investigation "absolutely disproportional."

Aleksei K. Simonov, the president of the Glasnost Defense Foundation in Moscow, said the two cases would lead to still more self-censorship. He said the law on inciting religious or ethnic hatred was so broadly interpreted that any discussion of religion risked investigation.

"You start to think what might happen," he said. "Think of Chekhov. His works are full of funny stories about priests."

Death Toll in Nigeria Reaches 24

LAGOS, Nigeria, Feb. 20 (Agence France-Presse) — The death toll in weekend violence in Nigeria over the publication of cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad has risen to 24, the Red Cross said Monday, with 230 people wounded.

Twenty-one people died in Maiduguri, in the north, and three in Katsina, said the Red Cross officer in charge of disaster management, Adronicus Adeyemo.
Protesters in Maiduguri turned on the Christian minority, burning churches and shops, and troops and police officers were deployed to restore order.

Most of the victims in Maiduguri are believed to be Christians because they were attacked in churches, the Red Cross official said. A Roman Catholic priest was among those killed. Authorities in the region have imposed a curfew.

Nigeria's 130 million people are divided roughly equally between Muslims and Christians of a variety of sects and denominations. Northern Nigeria is overwhelmingly Muslim, but major cities have significant Christian minorities.

Pope Urges Respect for Symbols

By The New York Times

VATICAN CITY, Feb. 20 — Pope Benedict XVI said Monday that it was "vital and urgent" that religion and religious symbols be respected, in clear comments on the controversy over cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad that have ignited riots around the Muslim world.

The pope said, "Intolerance and violence can never be justified as a response to any offense, because it is a response that is incompatible with the sacred principles of religion."

The pope made his comments in a speech as the new Moroccan ambassador to the Holy See presented his credentials.


Copyright 2006 (http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/copyright.html)The New York Times Company (http://www.nytco.com/)

[lofter1]

Maybe if everyone just kept all religious discussions within the confines of their house of worship ...

[lofter1]

Another vein of "self-censorship" here at home?

Teacher uses racial epithet toward student

Valley High teacher Paul Dawson earns 10-day suspension for incident, but impact is far-reaching

http://www.whas11.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?vidId=49293&catId=49

[BrooklynRider]

That just seems silly. Get on a subway train between 2:30Pm and 4:00PM and you can here students of all ages calling each other "niggah." I'm not necessarily saying that this guy is right, but, if using the word is a suspendable offense for a teacher, then any student using the word ought to face punishment as well.

In the end, I think restrictions on use of words, censorship and punitive action for using a word are just plain stupid. Unless that word is written into the code of conduct, the code is subject to interpretation. If children - any children - are permitted to use the word without reprisal then this disciplinary action is overreaching and, I believe illegal.

[Ninjahedge]

Diversity Training?


Come on. these kids should not be allowed to say it if he isn't. 10 day suspension.

That kid does not want the teacher to be there because he said it once? This kid is lying his a$$ off.

The teacher should not be allowed to say that any more than swearing (WTF was that?) but the kids should be held to similar standards.


Kinda reminds me of the commedian that changed to Judaeism so he could tell jew jokes (Seinfeld ep.). Somehow you an only be one of the "club" to insult another, because that means the insult does not mean anything... :P

[ablarc]

Isn't this whole thread really about political correctness run amuck?

[Ninjahedge]

Isn't this whole thread really about political correctness run amuck?

/me runs.....



amuck amuck amuck!!!!!



Definition: http://www.word-detective.com/back-a.html

[BrooklynRider]

The Spectator (London)
Why you never hear Muslim jokes
by Jackie Mason

Muslim fundamentalists have decided that even if you never saw or heard of the cartoons, you deserve to be hit with rocks, have your car wrecked and your embassies destroyed.

Ironically, the cartoonists were not insulting Islam; they were satirising fanaticism. Now the fanatics have decided that there are no laws, limits or boundaries that apply to their behaviour. They not only have the right to take your life; they now have the right to rob you of your freedom of _expression.

Could you picture a Jew killing anybody for such meaningless reasons? If a Jew gets mad he might sneak into your house and steal your Lipitor or he would make a deal with your doctor to lie about your cholesterol number, or just when you have fasted a whole day on Yom Kippur he would sneak into your house and steal all the pastrami sandwiches.

I never saw a Jew going into meaningless fights. That is why you seldom see Jewish football players. A Jew is not going to take a chance in spraining his neck or tearing a ligament in his knee just because he was fighting with somebody about catching a ball. He would rather go to a store and buy another ball and avoid the whole problem. That is why there are also no Jewish hockey players. Hockey players spend all their time hitting each other in the mouth with sticks. When Jews saw how Gentiles played hockey, that is how Jews found out that instead of becoming hockey players they would become Dentists, and that way they decided to let other people play the game while they found a way to make a profit from it.

Jews are never known to get into unnecessary physical battles. That is why people are never afraid of being attacked by a Jew. Did you ever hear anybody say, Don't go into that neighbourhood, it is very dangerous, there are a lot of Jews there'? Jews have so long been accustomed to being threatened and persecuted all over the world that they could never dream of creating needless violence anywhere, because they would be grateful to find a place where they are allowed to live in peace.

Meanwhile, the world is reacting with an amazing cowardice. Instead of a collective fury, we are pleading forgiveness and promising not to offend them with any more cartoons. Could anything be more perverted?

[lofter1]

More cartoons posted : http://boomka.org/blog/wp-content/plugins/falbum/wp/album.php?album=72057594067999377&page=1

http://static.flickr.com/32/103106548_54cdc13d95.jpg

[cyppok]

The thing that gets me most is people making excuses like this: "They shouldn't have provoked them on purpose knowing the reaction" boo hoo
So if I print a caricature of someone they are justified in beating me up and setting my house on fire? And me not being able to exercise my right of free speech is justified for that person to feel comfortable?

In essense its like ten people in a room with some bully and everyone must placate the bully even though they could set him straight if they just beat him up and put him into the equality of this world.

[ZippyTheChimp]

Lofter: LMAO!

But you do realize that people in Tehran are going to think that it is news. They'll probably conclude that the Pope's death was a hoax, and he's living on a tropical island with Ariel Sharon.

Off topic. but the remark
you seldom see Jewish football playersreminded me of the debate during the 1990s about the use of Indians or Redskins as team names, and gestures like the Atlanta Braves' tomahawk chop.When asked what the big problem was, and Indian spokesman said, "What if you had a college football team called the Minnesota Jews, and after every touchdown, the fans yelled, "Oy, such a deal!"

[lofter1]

"What if you had a college football team called the Minnesota Jews, and after every touchdown, the fans yelled, "Oy, such a deal!"
Har har har ...

Now that would inject some new life into the NFL ...

[Ninjahedge]

Why don't you name the team the NY West Villagers and wonder why they spend so much time in the huddle?

Come on, lets get real here.

[lofter1]

More of the latest submissions from the Anti-Semitic Cartoon Contest ...

http://boomka.org/blog/wp-content/plugins/falbum/wp/album.php?album=72057594067999377&page=1

http://static.flickr.com/42/104308199_c9d818c963.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/56/106465014_f85a9f4310.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/50/106917842_ce92411a6d.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/50/108073817_9008ed391a.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/46/108074166_7520ddf075.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/36/106918054_b4bbcffebf.jpg

[lofter1]

Boycott backfires: South Park gets record audience

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/arts/photos/2006/02/23/southpark_getty_1150660.jpg
(Getty Images)
(From left) Kenny, Cartman, Kyle and Stan
star in the hit series 'South Park.'

CBC Arts (http://www.cbc.ca/arts/credit.html)
Feb. 23, 2006

http://www.cbc.ca/story/arts/national/2006/02/23/boycott-southpark-ratings.html

An appeal from the Catholic Church for New Zealanders to boycott an episode of South Park has resulted in a record audience there for the controversial cartoon.


FROM FEB. 20, 2006: New Zealand bishops join fight against South Park episode (http://www.cbc.ca/story/arts/national/2006/02/20/south-park-newzealand.html)The "Bloody Mary" episode of South Park drew more than six times the normal audience, New Zealand broadcaster TV Works announced Thursday.
The episode, which aired Wednesday night, was seen by 210,000 viewers, according to Rick Friesen, the broadcaster's chief operating officer.

FROM DEC. 9, 2005: Catholic group rails against new 'South Park' (http://www.cbc.ca/story/arts/national/2005/12/09/south-park-mary.html)"I expected a bit of a rise, but not that much," he told the Associated Press.

In the past month, he said, an average South Park episode typically draws about 32,500 viewers to the network's C4 youth channel.

FROM JULY 15, 2005: Catholics urged to boycott animated Vatican satire (http://www.cbc.ca/story/arts/national/2005/07/15/Arts/popetown050715.html)During Wednesday night's broadcast, however, more than 350 people protested outside the TV Works headquarters in Auckland.

The protest centred on a statue of the Virgin Mary, with participants — clutching Bibles and religious icons — singing hymns, reciting the rosary and offering other prayers.

A Catholic priest who led the protesters in prayer asked God to enlighten those responsible for the cartoon "and strengthen them to see how much harm they can do."

Last weekend, New Zealand's Roman Catholic bishops issued a letter urging parishioners to boycott the channel and its sponsors. The Federation of Islamic Associations of New Zealand also protested the episode and said it was deeply offensive.

The South Park episode revolves around a nearby town's discovery that a statue of the Virgin Mary has begun bleeding. The event is dubbed a miracle and the people flock to see the statue, including Pope Benedict XVI, who ultimately pronounces that the statue is menstruating.

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/arts/photos/2005/12/09/southparkguys_cp_8726173.jpg
(AP file photo)
'South Park' creators Trey Parker, left,
and Matt Stone in October 2005

In December, the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights condemned the episode's debut in the U.S.

The satirical, Emmy Award-winning South Park was created by Matt Stone and Trey Parker, who write, produce and provide voices for the show.

The provocative cartoon, about a group of foul-mouthed fourth graders living in the fictional small town of South Park, Colo., lampoons current events and famous figures, but Stone and Parker have said that many of the regular characters are based on people they knew while growing up in Colorado.

South Park airs on Comedy Central in the U.S. and the Comedy Network in Canada.

New Zealand's TV Works is a subsidiary of CanWest MediaWorks, which is majority owned by Winnipeg-based CanWest Global Communications.

Last summer, New Zealand's Catholic Church called for a boycott of the C4 youth channel for airing another cartoon series: the BBC-produced Popetown, a satire about life in the Vatican.

Copyright (http://www.cbc.ca/aboutcbc/discover/copyright.html) ©2006 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation - All Rights Reserved

[Ninjahedge]

It was a rude, raw disrespectful cartoon and all Christians should be insulted!!!!


It was also very funny. And if your faith in God and Jesus and all the people that make up your religion is so flimsy that a flash imitation of a stop action cartoon seems to be enough of a reason for you to call for a boycott not only of the show, but all that carry it, then you need to reexamine yourself.

The only thing these guys did differently is that they did not blow anything up or pay homless people to throw rocks at the US embassy in "protest"

[Jasonik]

March 9, 2006 NYTIMES.com

Lawyers Assail Yemeni Editor on Cartoons

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/03/09/international/09yemen184.1.jpg
The Yemen Observer, via Reuters
Muhammad al-Assadi, editor of The Yemen Observer
listened to his lawyer's defense Wednesday.


By HASSAN M. FATTAH
DUBAI, United Arab Emirates, March 8 — A group of 23 Yemeni lawyers denounced the editor of a Yemeni newspaper in court on Wednesday, during his trial on charges of insulting Islam for reprinting Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad.

The lawyers signed a document introduced at the trial of the editor, Muhammad al-Assadi, asking the court to close his weekly newspaper, The Yemeni Observer, confiscate its assets and pay damages to "all those people who suffered from the republishing the Danish cartoons." Furor over the cartoons spread around the world in recent months, fueling sometimes lethally violent protests.

The lawyers also reminded the court of a story from the days of the prophet in which a woman was executed for insulting him, and he praised her killer, a citation The Observer took as a threat to demand that the editor be sentenced to death. He currently faces a year in jail or a fine.

Mr. Assadi, who once worked as a part-time correspondent for The New York Times, is one of three Yemeni journalists facing criminal charges for republishing the cartoons. The other two are Abdulkarim Sabra, the managing editor of the weekly Al Hurriya, and Yehiya al-Abed, a reporter for that paper. The men were jailed for two weeks last month, before being released on bail. The three stand accused of insulting their faith by publishing the images, a crime approaching heresy. In each case, the editors' stated intention was to condemn the drawings. In the case of The Observer, the images were obscured by a black X.

Lawyers for Mr. Assadi accused the 23 of taking part in a campaign organized by Yemen's main Islamist party, led by Sheik Abdul-Majid al-Zindani. The party has collected about $25,000 to pay for legal action against the journalists.

The court adjourned until March 22, and the judge called on the 23 lawyers to register their suit with the prosecution. Eight other journalists in five countries are facing prosecution for reprinting the cartoons.

Khaled al-Hammadi contributed reporting from Sana, Yemen, for this article.

[Jasonik]

Scripps Howard Foundation Announces National Journalism Awards Winners
March 10, 2006
CINCINNATI-- The Scripps Howard Foundation today announced the winners of its annual National Journalism Awards, honoring the best in print, Web and electronic journalism and journalism education for 2005.

The awards, open to all U.S. news organizations and college journalism educators, recognize excellence in 17 categories, including editorial writing, human interest writing, environment, investigative, business/economics, Washington and public service reporting, commentary, photojournalism, radio and television reporting, Web reporting, college cartooning, editorial cartooning and journalism education.

The awards also honor distinguished service to the First Amendment.

Cash awards totaling $195,000 will be presented April 21 during a dinner at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C.

"Scripps Howard Foundation's National Journalism Awards celebrate and honor great work by American media and the important part journalists play in a free and democratic society," said Judith G. Clabes, Foundation president and chief executive officer. "The entries -- and the winners -- this year are incredible examples of the high level of journalism being practiced in this country."

The Scripps Howard Foundation is the philanthropic arm of The E. W. Scripps Company.

Complete winners list (http://foundation.scripps.com/foundation/news/newsrelease/06mar10.html)

EDITORIAL CARTOONING

http://www.ashbrook.org/images/ramirez.jpg
1994 Pulitzer Prize winner
Michael Ramirez

Michael Ramirez, Los Angeles Times, receives $10,000 and a trophy.

Ramirez’ work reflects his philosophy that an editorial cartoon is not just a funny picture, it’s a fine instrument of journalism that has a point, tells a story, and defines an issue. His cartoons are sharply defined and intelligent. From a wealth of material -- three Supreme Court nominations, Hurricane Katrina, lung cancer deaths, hunger, brinkmanship and scandal -- Ramirez produced poignant cartoons that have a message. Finalists: Mike Luckovich, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, and Kevin Kallaugher, The Baltimore Sun.

http://www.cagle.com/working/060206/ramirez.gif
2/6/06 - Michael Ramirez

http://www.cagle.com/working/060213/ramirez.gif
2/13/06 - Michael Ramirez

************************************************** *************
http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/shared-blogs/ajc/luckovich/media/mike020806.gif
2/8/06 - Mike Luckovich

http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/shared-blogs/ajc/luckovich/media/mike020906.gif
2/9/06 - Mike Luckovich

2/15/06
Interview (http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/shared-blogs/ajc/luckovich/entries/2006/02/15/an_interview.html)
Luckovich maintains that the Danish cartoons crossed a line of decency and professionalism. “Their mission was just to tick people off,” he said. “That’s what the editor wanted. I don’t think there was any greater message. You don’t yell ‘fire’ in a crowded theater, just to yell ‘fire.'"
...Luckovich reserved his sharpest criticism for the Danish editor. “An editor makes the decision on what goes into the paper,” he said. “I don’t hold the cartoonists as responsible as the editor.”

************************************************** *************
http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2006/02/03/GR2006020302245.jpg
2/5/06 - Kevin Kallaugher



************************************************** *************
1/15/06
Related Article (http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=2&q=http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/ideas/bal-id.moore15jan15,1,5014337.column%3Fctrack%3D1%26cs et%3Dtrue&e=9797)


...Kallaugher is one of more than 70 Sun employees who accepted a buyout as part of the newspaper's recent staff reduction.

...The Sun's corporate owner, Tribune Co., is in the forefront of these developments. In recent weeks, the Los Angeles Times, a Tribune-owned newspaper, fired cartoonist Michael Ramirez (with no plans to replace him) and offered cartoonist Bob Engelhart of the Hartford Courant a buyout (he declined to accept it). The Chicago Tribune has not employed a staff editorial cartoonist since Jeff MacNelly died in 2000.

What has emerged is a perception that Tribune Co. is targeting these positions because, as Kallaugher said, "it does not value the special contribution a resident cartoonist brings to their newspapers."
Black Ink Monday (http://editorialcartoonists.com/blackinkmonday.cfm), a non-violent protest by the Association of American Editorial Cartoonists (AAEC),is a response to the Tribune Company's recent elimination of editorial cartooning positions at several of its newspapers, as well as a commentary on newspapers everywhere who have lost sight of the value of having a staff editorial cartoonist.

[ablarc]

http://www.cagle.com/working/060206/ramirez.gif

...in a nutshell.

[lofter1]

The Egyptians respond with a CONTEST (http://www.sandmonkey.org/2006/04/02/egyptian-cartoonists-strike-back-at-denmark/) of their own ...

Rantings of a Sandmonkey
April 2, 2006

The Syndicate of Egyptian cartoonists decided that they would respond to the danish cartoons by making their own cartoons on what happend. They were done in order to- and I quote- " as a response to those who fell under the thrall of racism, forgery and crime", and were printed in a 2 page spread in Al Fagr newspaper, probably as a way to redeem the fact that they were the ones who first published the danish cartoons last October (http://www.sandmonkey.org/2006/04/02/2006/02/08/boycott-egypt/) . Here they are (NOTE: Partial posting of cartoons):

http://static.flickr.com/40/121802043_7604e806c9.jpg
The EU, shown as an agressive european stabbing
with a pen a defensless arab in the heart.

http://static.flickr.com/41/121802045_be399ad596_o.jpg
Self explanatory: The muslim world being bombed
by drawing pencils.

http://static.flickr.com/37/121802046_58d59c9633_o.jpg
The Danish cartoonists drawing his cartoon in the toilet.
And indication that he is full of shit.

http://static.flickr.com/41/121802048_261f0a75ff_o.jpg
A cartoon showing Islam as a flower being watered
by an angel, and when the evil people (note the
"jewish nose"; egyptians in cartoons and books
always portray jews with croocked noses) tried
to step on the hose, it sprayed blood all over them.
There is a Koranic verse on the bottom that loosely
translates to:
"They tried to plot against Islam so we made them lose/fail".

http://static.flickr.com/1/121805625_b842c237c6_o.jpg
A cartoon showing danish products as a pig, and
has an isncribtion that says "Boycotting the danish
products is the duty of every muslim"

http://static.flickr.com/38/121805626_d0a2ca12fc_o.jpg
Ahh, an anti semetic cartoon finally.
This one showing the danish cartoonists - with snakes
playing in his brain to emphasis evil and intention
to harm - drawing the cartoons while being paid by
the evil demonic jews (notice the star of david on the head?).

http://static.flickr.com/38/121805627_9e457982db.jpg
Self-explanatory: Islam is a dove that gets stabbed by a
cartoonists pen and wondeirng in shock: WHY?

http://static.flickr.com/41/121805629_2ad608732c.jpg
I don't need to explain this one.

http://static.flickr.com/36/121809411_41ee5a6176.jpg
A rat with the word racism inscribed on it in arabic eating away
at a big piece of cheese that symbolizes denmark.
Notice the Jyland Posten issue next to it.

http://static.flickr.com/39/121805628_2931098041.jpg
The Final and my favorite one:
Another Anti semetic cartoon, showing a pig drawing the cartoon
while saying sarcasticly:
"What is it? What's wrong? You never heard of something called
Freedom of Expression? Hahahahahahaha".
Please note the star of david hanging on the wall behind him.
Guess we are not letting this one go for a long long time!

[ablarc]

Hey, those are pretty funny.

[ablarc]

News from the kindergarten…

Moroccan wins Iran's Holocaust cartoon contest

By Parisa Hafezi Nov. 1, 2006

TEHRAN (Reuters) - A Moroccan won first prize on Wednesday in Iran's International Holocaust Cartoons Contest, which had sparked outrage in Israel, the West and among Jewish groups.

Iran's best-selling newspaper, Hamshahri, launched a competition in February to find the best cartoon about the Holocaust, in which 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis.

The contest was a retaliation for last year's publication of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad in Danish and other European newspapers that angered Muslims worldwide.

Presenting a prize to a representative of Moroccan cartoonist Abdellah Derkaoui, Culture and Islamic Guidance Minister Mohammad Hossein Saffar-Harandi praised Iran President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who has described the Holocaust as a "myth."[and who will shortly have his finger on a nuclear trigger.]

"Our president was the brave and freedom-seeking person who started this debate without being concerned about its consequences," Saffar-Harandi said.

Derkaoui's cartoon shows a crane with a Star of David sign, putting up blocks making a wall separating the Muslim shrine, the Dome of the Rock, from Jerusalem. The wall has a gate, shown in the distance, that looks like one at the Auschwitz concentration camp, where Jews were incarcerated and killed.
"The taboo is broken now. People should not think that by questioning the Holocaust, they are committing a crime," the minister said. The Moroccan cartoonist won $12,000.

Masoud Shojai-Tabatabai, head of the Cartoon House which helped organize the exhibition of entries, said the government was not financing the prizes but he did not say who was.

In September, while in Tehran, U.N. Secretary General Kofi Anan condemned the cartoon exhibition and said the Holocaust was an undeniable historical fact.

"We should be careful not to say anything that is used as an excuse for incitement to hatred or violence," he said.

The second prize, worth $8,000, went jointly to French and Brazilian cartoonists. The third-placed competitor was an Iranian cartoonist.
Shojai-Tabatabai did not reveal the French cartoonist's name. "You can call the French cartoonist 'Mr. X'. If I reveal his name, he may face imprisonment in France."

Organizers said some 1,193 drawings had been received from 62 countries including some European states where it is a crime to deny the Holocaust. Some 204 were on display.

The messages of the cartoons displayed were not always clear although several seemed to poke fun at the United States, Iran's arch-enemy.
The competition drew condemnation from the Israeli government, Jewish groups and the mayor of Paris. The United States called the idea "outrageous."

Israeli government spokesman Gideon Meir called on the international community to express disgust for "such an anti-Semitic and inhuman event."


Pretty funny.

A global movement.

[ZippyTheChimp]

The winning entry:
http://hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/holocaust-toon.jpg

Not as biting or funny as the Israeli contest.


Meanwhile, the Danes have reentered the arena:

Danish Political Activists Draw New Anti-Muslim Cartoons

October 9, 2006 12:49 p.m. EST

Mort Karman - All Headline News Staff Writer

Denmark (AHN)- Even though they have not yet fully recovered from the economic and political implications of last year's publication by a newspaper of a series of cartoons which were condemned in the Islamic world for mocking the Prophet Muhammad, the Danes have done it again.

Danish People's Party activists were filmed by a Danish television station at a summer camp, drinking, singing and taking part in a contest to draw images of Muhammad, including one depicting the Prophet as a camel with beer bottles as humps.

When a cartoon was first published last year of Muhammad with a bomb in his turban appeared in a Danish newspaper it sparked off riots, not only in Islamic countries, but also in parts of Europe with large muslim populations. An economic boycott of Danish products was also proclaimed by many Muslim nations.

At least 50 people were killed in the resulting rioting as several more anti-Muslim cartoons were published.

Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen, who was blamed last year for not responding quickly enough to Muslim complaints about that set of cartoons, responded quickly this time, reports the BBC.

While insisting that because Denmark is a democracy he could not control the media he condemned the latest drawings as "tasteless and unacceptable."

"The behavior of a few activists in no way represents the Danish people or their views of Muslims or Islam," he said.

Danish Muslim leaders said they would not be provoked by the latest incident.

All through Europe anti-Muslim sentiments have risen, fueled largely by terrorist incidents, which almost exclusively have been committed by Islamic religious extremists.

Iran and Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood said the new cartoons insulted Islam. Iran officially protested to the Danish government on Sunday.

Shortly after the publication of the original cartoons, Iran staged an anti-Jewish cartoon contest.


Indonesia has responded:

Indonesian station opens drawing contest of Danish king with pigs

dpa German Press Agency
Published: Wednesday October 11, 2006

Jakarta- An Indonesian radio station is organizing a contest to see who can draw the best sketch of the king of Denmark standing with pigs in response to the posting of a video degrading the Prophet Mohammed on the internet, a local report said Wednesday. The contest, titled "Denmark's King and Pigs," offers 5 million rupiah (548 dollars) in prize money to the winner, said Imam Mubarok of Radikal radio station in Kediri, East Java.

"We will send the winning drawing to the Danish kingdom," he told Republika, a Muslim-oriented daily newspaper.

It was unknown whether the contest's subject is the late Frederik IX, who died in 1972. Denmark's current reigning monarch is his daughter, Queen Margrethe II.

Muslims are forbidden from eating pork, so the contest is meant to be an insult to Denmark, which found itself in the middle of yet another controversy with Muslim countries.

Last year, Muslims in several nations rioted after a Danish newspaper published a series of cartoons depicting Mohammed as a terrorist.

Iran then organized a contest to see who could draw the best cartoon depicting the Holocaust.

The video, made by members of the Youth Branch of the Denmark People's Party, contains blasphemous content about the Prophet Mohammed. The country's prime minister, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, condemned the video, but his government was nonetheless denounced by Muslim nations around the world.

The video has since been removed from two internet sites where it was posted.

Indonesia's foreign ministry summoned Denmark's ambassador on Tuesday to voice its displeasure, while Muslim groups here issued statements denouncing the video as an insult to Islam.

© 2006 dpa German Press Agency

[Jake]

I applaud the Danes for this, at least someone doesn't hide under their desks when they're called politically incorrect.

And as far as the Egyptian cartoons go, I care about about as much as I should, which is not at all.

:p

[ZippyTheChimp]

Bin Laden Threatens Europe Over Muhammad Cartoons

By Craig Whitlock
Washington Post Foreign Service

Thursday, March 20, 2008

BERLIN, March 19 -- In a new audiotape released Wednesday, Osama bin Laden warned Europeans that they will face a "severe reckoning" for repeatedly publishing cartoons of the prophet Muhammad in newspapers and magazines.

The five-minute speech was the second time in four months that bin Laden has delivered threats to European countries. He made only one oblique reference to President Bush -- calling him "your aggressive ally . . . who is about to depart the White House" -- and instead addressed his remarks to "the intelligent ones in the European Union."

The al-Qaeda leader criticized European countries for joining in military campaigns in Muslim lands. Although he lamented those actions, he suggested that the Muhammad cartoons were even more immoral and that retaliation was coming.

"It paled when you went overboard in your unbelief . . . and went to the extent of publishing those insulting drawings," he said. "If there is no check on your freedom of words, then let your hearts be open to the freedom of our actions."

The audio recording was accompanied by a still photograph of bin Laden holding an automatic rifle and was released by As-Sahab, the media arm of al-Qaeda.

In 2006, the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten published 12 cartoons depicting Muhammad, prompting protests throughout the Muslim world. Followers of the faith generally consider depictions of the prophet blasphemous. Other European publications reprinted the cartoons, citing the right to free speech.

Last month, a cartoon showing Muhammad with a bomb for a turban was reprinted in Danish newspapers after police in Copenhagen said they had disrupted an assassination plot against the illustrator.

Staff researcher Julie Tate in Washington contributed to this report.

© 2008 The Washington Post Company

[Radiohead]

I wonder if Bin Laden would find this offensive

http://www.normanhood.co.uk/muhammadali2.jpg

[Ninjahedge]

He is still looking for a scapegoat, a universal enemy for people to support him, or whoever is really on or sponsored that tape.

The ONLY solution to situations like these is to get these people something to make them more comfortable in life. Try and break the concentration of wealth that they still posses over there. Make it so that even the poor does not feel that he needs to kill another man to make his life better.



Everyone feels like they need to defend their homeland. But the more a person has to lose, the less they are willing to attack someone and risk it all based only on what another is telling them.

Hunger has a way of making you believe the person who is offering food more-so that the one that tells you the truth.

[lofter1]

Islamists Threaten South Park (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/04/islamists-threaten-south-park.html)

Matt Stone and Trey Parker, creators of South Park, have been marked for death (http://islamizationwatch.blogspot.com/2010/04/radical-islamic-web-site.html) for showing Muhammed in a bear suit.


“We have to warn Matt and Trey that what they are doing is stupid and they will probably wind up like Theo Van Gogh for airing this show. This is not a threat, but a warning of the reality of what will likely happen to them.” Theo van Gogh was a Dutch filmmaker who was murdered by an Islamic extremist in 2004 after making a short documentary on violence against women in some Islamic societies. The posting on Revolutionmuslim.com features a graphic photograph of Van Gogh with his throat cut and a dagger in his chest... Al Amrikee said the purpose of including the al-Awlaki sermon in his posting was to remind Muslims that insulting the prophet is a severe offense for which the punishment in Islam is death.

Video (http://www.youtube.com/user/revolutionmuslims#p/u/0/-rfNSGY14w4): The Defense Of The Prophet (SWS) Campaign from revolutionmuslim at the group's youtube channel.

The video posted by revolutionmuslim (http://www.revolutionmuslim.com/), wherein they link Stone & Parker to Theo Van Gogh (murdered) and Salman Rushdie (marked for murder), ends with the words:


Join Us
In This Campaign
To Let Matt Stone
& Trey Parker
Know That
The Dust Will Never Settle Down

[Ninjahedge]

What these guys do not realize is that when you start threatening too many people, eventually, right or wrong, those people start threatening back.

Does it wort to alleviate the problem? No. Hate begets hate, violence begets violence, and we are in danger of having an "ethnic cleansing" if idiots like this continue to "not threaten" like this. :(

[ablarc]

Matt Stone and Trey Parker, creators of South Park, have been marked for death (http://islamizationwatch.blogspot.com/2010/04/radical-islamic-web-site.html) for showing Muhammed in a bear suit.

The video posted by revolutionmuslim (http://www.revolutionmuslim.com/), wherein they link Stone & Parker to Theo Van Gogh (murdered) and Salman Rushdie (marked for murder), ends with the words:


Join Us
In This Campaign
To Let Matt Stone
& Trey Parker
Know That
The Dust Will Never Settle Down

THE HIERARCHY OF VILIFICATION AND BAD-MOUTHING

Some groups you can bad-mouth to your heart’s content. You can vilify fundamentalist Christians till the cows come home and beyond. Similarly you can say any number of bad things about the United States.

England, France and Germany, their people and their descendants, are legitimate targets for any slur you choose. Everyone agrees its OK to point out that the French are arrogant, the British cold and unfeeling, the Germans harsh, flatulent and sadistic. It’s even OK to refer to them as krauts, huns, limeys and frogs; folks from these countries are fair game.

Australians, Canadians and New Zealanders could join this group, but no disparaging tags are applied to them yet; they're too mild-mannered for anyone to think of anything bad to say about them (oh, I just did, but it was mild…).

You can freely denounce Israel, you can even claim they're the new Nazis, but you have to be careful what you say about Jews (except of course when they’re supporting Israel).

You can never say anything derogatory about the Bronx or its residents (except the ones from Riverdale or Co-op City).

Italians and European Spaniards score a rung below Northern Europeans on the Badmouth Permissibility Index. It’s OK to denounce them when their descendants move to the suburbs, or to remember their barbarous conquest of Mexico, but you can’t yet refer to them with the short, unhyphenated monikers assigned to them by honkies. “Italian-American” will have to do for now until they reach the status of the frogs and krauts.

Some groups, however, can do no wrong; they will never reach even this level on the Badmouth Permissibilty Index.

Curiously, the more members of certain groups feel free to brand others with hateful slurs (and back those slurs with actual hate crimes) the lower their score on the Badmouth Permissibility Index; lowest on the Index are those who hate the most and express their loathing with epithets and action. Every videotaped beheading or anti-semitic pronouncement comes with a recitation of the satanic crusaders' culpability, but since the group expressing hatred is one satanic crusaders can't bad-mouth, folks from among the satanic crusaders sometimes assign the onus to their own group instead; you have to blame somebody under the rules of liberal guilt..

You’d think maybe that this was motivated by a moderate’s desire to give good example to the errant, but since the example’s not being taken it must be one of those weird bible-thumper notions.

How many derogatory slurs do you know for an imam who advocates the murder of cartoonists?

OK, all you crackers, honkies and rednecks (and the rest of you) out there, here’s one you do know the answer to: Who’s the Great Satan?

[MidtownGuy]

You can freely denounce Israel, you can even claim they're the new Nazis, but you have to be careful what you say about Jews (except of course when they’re supporting Israel).Thinking people can see the difference between denouncing the policies of the state (decades of occupation, collective punishment, illegal colonization in the West Bank, dropping white phosphorus on civilians, etc.) and denouncing Jews personally as smelly, evil, stingy, or bald with little dicks. The first is perfectly reasonable, the second isn't. It's certainly unfortunate that the ADL (or even people right here on this forum) can't distinguish between the two...or don't think that we should.


"You can vilify fundamentalist Christians till the cows come home and beyond."Anybody who believes the Earth is only 5000 years old and that we're all going to literally float naked into the sky deserves ridicule. Yes! Just like the muslim guy who thinks there are 99 virgins waiting for him in some celestial version of the Playboy Mansion. They're all stark raving mad without need to distinguish between them.
Since fundamentalist Christians also seek to deny certain portions of the population equal rights, and since fundamentalist Christians carry out terrorist attacks on abortion doctors or others who do not share their beliefs, I don't think it's very useful to distinguish between fundamentalists of one religion or the other. Fundamental Christians are hateful, fundamentalist Muslims are hateful.


How many derogatory slurs do you know for an imam who advocates the murder of cartoonists?
Silly rhetoric deserves to be answered with more silly rhetoric: "How many derogatory slurs do you know for a priest who covers up pedophilia?"

[Fabrizio]

Fundamentalist Christians live within secular States and are held to civil law for actions like bombing abortion centers. They are condemened and tried by others who also identify themselves as Christian.

I don't know of any Fundamentalist Christian nations (actually Christianity and it's principals allowed the establishment of democracy.) However, here's an example of what happens in Fundamentalist Muslim nations... law in these nations established BY their religion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

[MidtownGuy]

Fundamentalist Christians live within secular States and are held to civil law for actions like bombing abortion centers. They are condemned and tried by others who also identify themselves as Christian.
None of which changes or refutes anything I said.
The point still stands:
Fundamentalists of both religions are divorced from reality. Some fundamentalists from both religions see violence as an acceptable way to push their beliefs on others.

Some Christians denounce the murders. Others praise it. Some imams denounce murders, others praise it. Easy truth to grasp, really. Nothing controversial.

I am objective enough to see the problems in both religions: Fundamentalist Christians and Fundamentalist Muslims deserve to blow each other apart. Too bad the rest of us would fall in the cross hairs too. What was that story about bullets or something inscribed with biblical phrases?

Fundamentalist Christians, Fundamentalist Muslims...they are all ridiculous people following ridiculous, superstitious nonsense. You've got evil bastards in both religions. Obviously not all fundamentalists support the murder of medical professionals. But there are those that do, and they give a bad name to all the rest. Similar with Muslims.
And obviously some of the people on a jury here would be Christian, but some wouldn't...so saying they are tried by others who also identify as Christian is just over reaching, generalizing nonsense. Most people, in most places, on or off a jury, are not fundamentalists... and most aren't even "practicing" their religion as much as they are picking and choosing from a buffet of beliefs, heaping their plate with certain ideas, and skipping over other dishes entirely.

But it's only the Muslims that are a problem. Christians on a rampage to deny the rights of others, or blasting apart medical facilities, or government buildings, not so much. We've got the "Christian" courts. OKAY.

[Fabrizio]

"Some Christians denounce the murders. Others praise it. Some imams denounce murders, others praise it. Easy truth to grasp, really. Nothing controversial."

Some Christians denounce the murders? Just some Christians?

Will you please show me the outpouring of disgust by Islamic Imams over the hanging of 2 teenage boys in Iran for being homosexual? (homosexuality gets the death penalty in a number of Islamic nations.) So I'm looking forward to your findings. Please post them when you get a chance.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/_41353811_hangingap203b.jpg

[MidtownGuy]

People don't post things because you tell them to. So keep "looking forward" to whatever you like.

Some: a portion of the whole.

my quote:
"Some Christians denounce the murders. Others praise it. Some imams denounce murders, others praise it. Easy truth to grasp, really. Nothing controversial."If you can actually demonstrate something untrue in that statement, please do. Otherwise, if you have only distractions and silly bait, silence is golden.



So I'm looking forward to your findings. Please post them when you get a chance.
Let me throw in some "Thanks...please post...I'm looking forward...have a nice day...."
...and whatever other sarcastic pleasantry you get a kick out of. Just another slow day in Tuscany I guess.

[MidtownGuy]

Now, fantabulous fabrizio, I'm sure you'd like to bait me into another pissing match, and then polish off your halo while complaining to a moderator, but excuse me if I bow out of this one. It's 70 and sunny here, and I'm headed to central Park for the afternoon. You'll have to get your silly kicks elsewhere.

[Fabrizio]

Ah yes, the fact that the bombings of abortion centers etc. are overwhelming condemed by Christians inthe US and around the world is just "only distractions and silly bait".

Let's do it this way: If anyone can show me the outpouring of disgust by Islamic Imams over the hanging of 2 teenage boys in Iran for being homosexual I'd love to see it.

[Ninjahedge]

Started off OK, but then the words came to blahs......

MTG, you came in like Gangbusters and Fab you came in like, well, Fab! ;)

Back OT though. I think the problems are more diverse and harder to categorize as easily as many others have in the past. AAMOF, that categorization is what gets us into trouble in the first place. the de-humanizing of a group is easy. It is a tool in psycological warfare. it is easy to hate an icon, a stereotype, a generality, but hard to hate an individual (to the point of wanting to exterminate their existance personally). Are there exceptions to this? Of course! There are very few absolutes in this world, especially when it comes to psycology and behavioral science, but lets get past that.

MTG, the thing that makes it hard to hate "extremists" is that there is no clear line, no fence built, to easily delineate between "ardent" and "extreme". There are always those that are clearly on one side of that fence or another, but the problem comes with the fence straddlers AND the people they are related to.

When "war" is declared on a group that has no clear membership, no gang colors, fringes and innocents (as you mentioned) get caught in the crossfire. Once THAT happens, the line gets blurrier and blurrier untul it reaches a more defined demarcation. Race, Gender and Declared Religion are three of the easiest, even though people still find it hard to tell a Muslim from a Bhuddist, and then go further as demarking each by their clothes, accent or skin color.

Not to be left out of the potential "Google" stock tip, many opportunist "leaders" jump on these popular misinformed bandwagons (you Betcha!) to "lead" thes misinformed people hating a generic group of people they have been misinformed as to being the enemy of THEIR own generalized group of "good' people.

Anyone left in the middle, thinking the others are bonkers, are either hiding, or being shot at by both because "anyone that taint with us is agin us".

Lovely.




So REALLY back on topic here is that we have ON FRIGGING WEBSITE, not a declaration that I am aware by the religious leaders of the Imam or any other Muslim/Islamic group, that they think that anyone that even mentions Mohammed in a less than flattering light should be killed.

Maybe the world would do better if people paid LESS attension to these guys? Free press is hard to buy you know.


(PS, did you notice that in all the "gods" shown in last nights episode of Supernatural, none were Mohammed? I did not notice it until now.... ;) )

[Ninjahedge]

Ah yes, the fact that the bombings of abortion centers etc. are overwhelming condemed by Christians inthe US and around the world is just "only distractions and silly bait".

Let's do it this way: If anyone can show me the outpouring of disgust by Islamic Imams over the hanging of 2 teenage boys in Iran for being homosexual I'd love to see it.


Off topic.

You are trying to prove your point by asking what people would publicly display their support for something that people kill for? Lets bring the Nazi's back in. How many (and for how long) protested the killing of a person because they were JEWISH out in public?

Things that will get you killed because of a lack of protection are rarely done for long.

[Fabrizio]

"You are trying to prove your point by asking what people would publicly display their support for something that people kill for? Lets bring the Nazi's back in. How many (and for how long) protested the killing of a person because they were JEWISH out in public?"

You are making my point. The fact that there is such fear (or is it agreement?) among Muslims to condem such things in today's world tells us quite a bit.

[Ninjahedge]

I am not saying you have a point or not Fab, and I agree with a lot of what you say, I just do not think it fits well in the original discussion.

Trust me, being the King of mis-fitting conversation topics is a burden I have born for quite some time.

[212]

I regret that I agree with Fabrizio on this.

The Western world desperately needs brave Muslim clerics who will oppose blasphemy (of course) but also mount a strong defense of the right to blasphemous speech. The silence of even the most liberal clerics is very troubling.

[MidtownGuy]

Yeah, that blasphemous Chris Ofili was welcomed so warmly by liberal New York priests... who colluded with Giuliani to get a museum exhibit shut down for presenting an "offensive" image of the Virgin Mary. Which wasn't even offensive. Remember the uproar over Piss Christ by Serrano? Christians on the whole seem tolerant, and tell us how it's acceptable to offend them, yet when images turn up in a newspaper or exhibit that certain Christians don't like, we get calls to defund artists and shut down museums. And this in Liberal NYC. So I don't pay much attention to the fatwa of some fundamentalist clerics ... I certainly don't let it pollute my perception of most Muslims.

So let me get this straight...we have a small but burgeoning consensus here, saying that Muslim clerics, even the most liberal ones, are in agreement with killing cartoonists for blasphemy and executing gays (their alleged silence tells us this)? Oh brother. What Muslim clerics are you talking to, or listening to? How many Muslim clerics do we typically come in contact with, how many Mosques do we attend, that we should think we're so informed about what clerics have said or not said about death penalty for a cartoon, or gayness?


"The fact that there is such fear (or is it agreement?) among Muslims to condem such things in today's world tells us quite a bit."

Fact? It's no fact, it's your false assertion. Among what Muslims may we ask? Modern, non-fundamentalist Muslims would certainly condemn these executions...my Muslim friends certainly do. They have rights and freedom of speech here, so they do. Their modern practice of Islam no longer advocates executions like this, just as modern non-extremist Christians don't believe in the death penalty for gays as written in Leviticus 20:13. Duh.

You use the phrase "in today's world" but does the era really change things? We can look at history and discover the same compliance or at least silence during past atrocities, committed by Christians, that went unprotested publicly at the time. There is suppression of dissent when a powerful despotic regime is controlling how things go. Look how long the Church had huge power, and boy did it run with it! "Heretics" beware!

In a country like Iran, the people aren't in "today's world", they're trapped within a despotic bubble. The press is controlled when you have a tyrannical regime like the one in control of Iran, and although virtuous people may disagree with things done by rotten people in charge, they find it difficult and dangerous to speak against the powerful (especially in a public way such as newspaper or other media). Yesterday or today.

More typically, one denounces and complains about these things in private, among trustworthy friends in one's own house, and perhaps builds dissent underground. Historically, minorities have been persecuted/executed in tyrannical states and objectors can't do a thing about it publicly without endangering themselves or their own families. As Ninjahedge mentioned, how many good Christian Germans spoke publicly about how they were disgusted by Hitler and wanted the executions of Jews (and homosexuals) stopped immediately? Where was the outpouring of disgust? It was lost in the fear of repercussion. Germans who objected did things privately, like trying to provide sanctuary or whatever. They didn't make an appointment with Goebbels to express disgust and have it printed in the newspaper.

Now, I don't know if it's willful ignorance or what, but the real fact is this: despite the Iranian government increasingly putting protesters to death, there IS a struggling opposition in Iran that opposes exactly the type of ruling clerics that put those two boys to death. You can read about the Iranian opposition (composed, incidentally, of Muslims) in the newspaper every day. In fact, there is an article in the Post today...
Iran's opposition leader assails ruling clerics (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/26/AR2010042601240.html)
Read what moderate Persian Muslims who are fighting to regain control of their country have to say to about arresting, beating, and killing citizens. Then read up on how Iran was before the extremist fundamentalists took control. It was in the process of modernizing. Yet even today there is a huge swath of the population that opposes the harsh executions, political arrests, etc., and want to see their nation rejoin "today's world", the 21st century world of human rights that Fabrizio and the rest of us are fortunate to live in. YES, an Opposition exists.

Try watching some subtitled Persian films, if they're easy to get where you live, and start to understand the complexity that is Persia. After all, their civilization is older than mine or yours.

Do we all understand that Christians are no better than anybody else? Not even the pagans. Do we even need to discuss the centuries of slavery under Christians? Both Muslims and Christians dealt in slaves and used scripture to excuse it. Then you've got the genocides in South America, treasures shipped off to Christian Europe where they funded giant Cathedrals to house the Christian God. Where was all the local Christian outrage in Seville? Of course we don't expect to find much.

We can start and stop the timeline wherever it is convenient for our position, but when you look back over the total arc of history, it looks like Christendom is just as intolerant and weighed down by violent atrocities (committed in the name of God) as Islam. And people trapped under it are just as silenced.

I'm glad that the death penalty for homosexuality is such a point of concern in the above posts... but just a couple of years ago, there was a proposed U.N. resolution that called on governments around the world to stop the criminalization and death penalty for homosexuality. The Vatican opposed it. Fabrizio...since you're obviously so concerned about the Iranian death penalty for gays, I assume you were in Rome protesting the Vatican position on the matter as emphatically as you hold up the case of the Iranians. Silence is agreement according to you, right? So, I assume you were there in public, displaying your outpouring of disgust against the Church's position. Bravo. Send me the link.

I'm confident there are plenty of good people who practice a modern non-extremist Muslim faith...who do not support the execution of the two teenagers that Fabrizio holds up like a barometer of all Islam.

Conversely, there have been Christians who displayed perfect satisfaction with the murder of young gays. Some of them showed up at Matt Shepard's funeral with signs such as "Matt Shepard Rots in Hell" or "God Hates Gays". Who were those people with the hateful signs at Shepard's funeral, expressing their glee that he would be rotting in hell? They point to the following violent hate speech in the Bible, while carrying picket signs:

Leviticus 20:13*(New International Version)
*13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.


Let's do it this way: If anyone can show me the outpouring of disgust by Islamic Imams over the hanging of 2 teenage boys in Iran for being homosexual I'd love to see it.


The first time he asked was just silly, but here we go again. He asks us to find and reference imam outrage over the execution? In Farsi, or Arabic I guess? Reported from the floor of a mosque maybe? Because "islamic imams" speak perfect English, are cozy with Western journalists, and I read their quotes on the internet all the time, right? The struggle of the opposition in Iran to end all such executions and beatings doesn't count...the statements made by people like moderate Muslim Mir Hossein Mousavi, Iran's opposition leader, relaying his conviction that the Clerics are not acting in the name of all Islam... this isn't considered. No, we get a flippant, stereotypical statement that Muslims are afraid... or in agreement... and a juvenile "name me some imams" game.

Muslims debate lots of things, in their own languages, that I'm sure don't appear in your newspaper. Why, and how, would they? While we are naming fantasy wish lists, I'd like Fabrizio to read and link for us some political dissent essays written in Chinese about the murder of Tibetans. Ridiculous, right? Do these essays exist? I dunno, but it's kind of silly to expect someone from the other side of the world to easily produce them, as if that seals an argument somehow.

Let's do it this way: How about Fabrizio going back and linking the public outpouring of disgust written by Christian priests while their brethren shuffled around criminal child abusers? Can't produce them? If we don't get those links, according to Fab's flawed reasoning, we should feel justified in denouncing all Christians as being afraid or in agreement. The flawed conclusion would be that priests in general just want pedophilia to continue. The reality is more complicated.

I'm sure many priests are disgusted, revolted...and suspected it was going on...but did a substantial portion of them organize and speak out publicly every day to stop it? NO. But I still think there are many priests who are good people.

Look back in time and things get really interesting. Imagine Christian priests expanding a "rectal pear" inside of people as punishment for sodomy. Where was the outpouring of disgust, I might ask? Should I request some links in Latin to the denouncements of the practice from fellow priests? Surely there must have been some?

Homosexual victims in Iran are held up as an example. How ironic. Anyone interested in learning how homosexuals living under Christian regimes have been persecuted and/or executed might read Louis Crompton's "Homosexual and Civilization". Here's an excerpt:

"To look back on the history of homosexuality in the West is to view a kaleidoscope of horrors: Justinian's castrated bishops; the dangling corpses of Almeria; the burning of the 'married' couples in Renaissance Rome; the priests starved to death in cages in Venice's Saint Mark's Square; women burned, hanged, or beheaded on the charge of lesbianism; men tortured and burned by the Spanish Inquisition; Indians savaged by Balboa's mastiffs or burned in Peru; the deaths at the quemadero in Mexico City; the men and boys of Faan; and the scores of men and adolescents hanged in Georgian England. All these atrocities were committed with the certainty that they were the will of God, necessary to stave off the kind of disaster that had overwhelmed the Cities of the Plain."

Lovely. What virtue those Christians have...and the fun continues: Christians in Uganda are now calling for a death penalty for homosexuals after being stoked by visiting Evangelical Christians from the U.S.

It should be obvious to anyone that there are socially acceptable and unacceptable elements in both Christianity and Islam. That is my point. I'm curious though, what is the point of the posters here that continually bash Muslims, yet seem to give Christians a pass? This is for the low IQ crowd.wink wink. Some people here are quite intelligent about architecture, and then channel Sarah Palin when it comes to their political rhetoric.

To sit here and read such blanket condemnations of Muslims, coming out of the mouths of Westerners now safely sitting in their armchairs, whose democracy has already been secured for them...and who themselves descend from a long line of atrocities in God's name..."tells us quite a bit" about them.

[Fabrizio]

I see most (well really all) of the above reasoning and arguments flawed. I'll get back to them later.

In the meantime: An excellent editorial in todays nytimes by Ross Douthat that adresses ablarc's earlier post quite well:

Not Even in South Park?


Published: April 25, 2010
Two months before 9/11, Comedy Central aired an episode of “South Park” entitled “Super Best Friends,” in which the cartoon show’s foul-mouthed urchins sought assistance from an unusual team of superheroes. These particular superfriends were all religious figures: Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Mormonism’s Joseph Smith, Taoism’s Lao-tse — and the Prophet Muhammad, depicted with a turban and a 5 o’clock shadow, and introduced as “the Muslim prophet with the powers of flame.” That was a more permissive time. You can’t portray Muhammad on American television anymore, as South Park’s creators, Trey Parker and Matt Stone, discovered in 2006, when they tried to parody the Danish cartoon controversy — in which unflattering caricatures of the prophet prompted worldwide riots — by scripting another animated appearance for Muhammad. The episode aired, but the cameo itself was blacked out, replaced by an announcement that Comedy Central had refused to show an image of the prophet.

For Parker and Stone, the obvious next step was to make fun of the fact that you can’t broadcast an image of Muhammad. Two weeks ago, “South Park” brought back the “super best friends,” but this time Muhammad never showed his face. He “appeared” from inside a U-Haul trailer, and then from inside a mascot’s costume. These gimmicks then prompted a writer for the New York-based Web site revolutionmuslim.com to predict that Parker and Stone would end up like Theo van Gogh, the Dutch filmmaker murdered in 2004 for his scathing critiques of Islam. The writer, an American convert to Islam named Abu Talhah Al-Amrikee, didn’t technically threaten to kill them himself. His post, and the accompanying photo of van Gogh’s corpse, was just “a warning ... of what will likely happen to them.”

This passive-aggressive death threat provoked a swift response from Comedy Central. In last week’s follow-up episode, the prophet’s non-appearance appearances were censored, and every single reference to Muhammad was bleeped out. The historical record was quickly scrubbed as well: The original “Super Best Friends” episode is no longer available on the Internet. In a way, the muzzling of “South Park” is no more disquieting than any other example of Western institutions’ cowering before the threat of Islamist violence. It’s no worse than the German opera house that temporarily suspended performances of Mozart’s opera “Idomeneo” because it included a scene featuring Muhammad’s severed head. Or Random House’s decision to cancel the publication of a novel about the prophet’s third wife. Or Yale University Press’s refusal to publish the controversial Danish cartoons ... in a book about the Danish cartoon crisis. Or the fact that various Western journalists, intellectuals and politicians — the list includes Oriana Fallaci in Italy, Michel Houellebecq in France, Mark Steyn in Canada and Geert Wilders in the Netherlands — have been hauled before courts and “human rights” tribunals, in supposedly liberal societies, for daring to give offense to Islam.

But there’s still a sense in which the “South Park” case is particularly illuminating. Not because it tells us anything new about the lines that writers and entertainers suddenly aren’t allowed to cross. But because it’s a reminder that Islam is just about the only place where we draw any lines at all. Across 14 on-air years, there’s no icon “South Park” hasn’t trampled, no vein of shock-comedy (sexual, scatalogical, blasphemous) it hasn’t mined. In a less jaded era, its creators would have been the rightful heirs of Oscar Wilde or Lenny Bruce — taking frequent risks to fillet the culture’s sacred cows. In ours, though, even Parker’s and Stone’s wildest outrages often just blur into the scenery. In a country where the latest hit movie, “Kick-Ass,” features an 11-year-old girl spitting obscenities and gutting bad guys while dressed in pedophile-bait outfits, there isn’t much room for real transgression. Our culture has few taboos that can’t be violated, and our establishment has largely given up on setting standards in the first place.

Except where Islam is concerned. There, the standards are established under threat of violence, and accepted out of a mix of self-preservation and self-loathing. This is what decadence looks like: a frantic coarseness that “bravely” trashes its own values and traditions, and then knuckles under swiftly to totalitarianism and brute force. Happily, today’s would-be totalitarians are probably too marginal to take full advantage. This isn’t Weimar Germany, and Islam’s radical fringe is still a fringe, rather than an existential enemy. For that, we should be grateful. Because if a violent fringe is capable of inspiring so much cowardice and self-censorship, it suggests that there’s enough rot in our institutions that a stronger foe might be able to bring them crashing down.

[MidtownGuy]

I see most (well really all) of the above reasoning and arguments flawed.Most unbiased people would see your reasoning completely flawed. I look forward to reading what new way you will make excuses and crazy generalizations. Yeah, like it's really flawed to essentially be saying both religions have their irrational nutcases. So does every forum I guess. How does one get through to these people...they just want to be right no matter how illogical their argument.

[MidtownGuy]

Note the conclusion of the author of the Southpark piece above.


Happily, today’s would-be totalitarians are probably too marginal to take full advantage. This isn’t Weimar Germany, and Islam’s radical fringe is still a fringe, rather than an existential enemy. For that, we should be grateful. Because if a violent fringe is capable of inspiring so much cowardice and self-censorship, it suggests that there’s enough rot in our institutions that a stronger foe might be able to bring them crashing down.

The radical fringe. My point all along.

Regarding the censorship of South Park, I do not like it, but I suspect it was a corporate thing, as much a business decision as some fear of actual violence.
Virtually all of TV is self-censored these days, mostly for reasons of corporate sponsorship. There are so many things I would like to see ridiculed on TV but it will never happen. Aside from South Park, I don't see a whole lot of Jesus bashing on TV either.

[lofter1]

Can anyone point us to a link where a cleric of any power has denounced the South Park death threats?

[MidtownGuy]

How do you propose one searches for that in terms of keywords, and in what languages do you expect it would be most likely to appear? What exactly are you suggesting it proves about Islam in general by the failure of a WNY member to provide a link here? Or maybe we just need more Muslim members who parse Muslim media more completely than we ever could...I mean before we go trashing everyone in an entire religion with overly general statements.

[lofter1]

'The Simpsons' Come To The Defense Of 'South Park.' Almost.

VIDEO (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/26/the-simpsons-come-to-the_n_551625.html)

[lofter1]

Seattle cartoonist launches "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day"

MyNorthwest.com (http://www.mynorthwest.com/?nid=11&sid=313170)
By JAMIE GRISWOLD
April 25, 2010

After Comedy Central cut a portion of a South Park episode following a death threat from a radical Muslim group, Seattle cartoonist Molly Norris wanted to counter the fear. She has declared May 20th "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day."

Norris told KIRO Radio's Dave Ross that cartoonists are meant to challenge the lines of political correctness. "That's a cartoonist's job, to be non-PC."

>> Listen to Molly Norris on Dave Ross (http://www.mynorthwest.com/resources/audio_headlines/audio_player.php?a=16801&f=/kiro/2010/04/04232010140224.mp3)

Producers of South Park said Thursday that Comedy Central removed a speech about intimidation and fear from their show after a radical Muslim group warned that they could be killed for insulting the Prophet Muhammad.

The group said it wasn't threatening South Park producers Trey Parker and Matt Stone, but it included a gruesome picture of Theo Van Gogh, a Dutch filmmaker killed by a Muslim extremist in 2004, and said the producers could meet the same fate. The website posted the addresses of Comedy Central's New York office and the California production studio where South Park is made.

"As a cartoonist I just felt so much passion about what had happened I wanted to kind of counter Comedy Central's message they sent about feeling afraid," Norris said.

Norris has asked other artists to submit drawings of any religious figure to be posted as part of Citizens Against Citizens Against Humor (CACAH) on May 20th.

On her website (http://www.mollynorris.com/) Norris explains this is not meant to disrespect any religion, but rather meant to protect people's right to express themselves.

Update: After the massive response to the cartoon Norris posted this on her website (http://www.mollynorris.com/):

I make cartoons about current, cultural events. I made a cartoon of a 'poster' entitled "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day!" with a nonexistent group's name -- Citizens Against Citizens Against Humor -- drawn on the cartoon also. I did not intend for my cartoon to go viral. I did not intend to be the focus of any 'group'. I practice the first amendment by drawing what I wish. This particular cartoon of a 'poster' seems to have struck a gigantic nerve, something I was totally unprepared for. I am going back to the drawing table now!

© 2010 The Associated Press.

[MidtownGuy]

^Glad to see it.

[Fabrizio]

Midtown wrote -
"How do you propose one searches for that in terms of keywords, and in what languages do you expect it would be most likely to appear"

Considering that there are millions of Muslims in the US & Europe, I propose giving it a try in English for starters.

-------------

Midtown wrote-
"Yeah, like it's really flawed to essentially be saying both religions have their irrational nutcases. So does every forum I guess. How does one get through to these people...they just want to be right no matter how illogical their argument.

Uh... midtown..... please note the comments here in just the last few pages:

ninja: (Fab) I agree with a lot of what you say
212: I regret that I agree with Fabrizio on this.
See Lofter's post.
See Ablarcs post.

I guess there are a number of irrational nutcases on this forum...

[lofter1]

What exactly are you suggesting it proves about Islam in general by the failure of a WNY member to provide a link here?


The lack of a link means nothing. However, an actual link to such a denunciation would be of interest.

(Similar to finding a high ranking Catholic who freely denounces the questionable positions of those atop the Vatican.)

[MidtownGuy]

I guess there are a number of irrational nutcases on this forum...Maybe so, and they've got a ringleader. But in all seriousness, Ninjahedge was not agreeing with much you said...he's sitting on the fence.
Ablarc is just like you when it comes to unfair generalizations about Islam so I don't put much weight there.
As for Lofter, he repeats the request for a link...which I find silly, again and which I have already addressed at length above.


Some people here are quite intelligent about architecture, and then channel Sarah Palin when it comes to their political rhetoric. Fabrizio writes again (because it's all he's got):
Considering that there are millions of Muslims in the US & Europe, I propose giving it a try in English for starters. I'm still trying to get something straight: what are you saying is proven by that? I just want to know what part of this:

like it's really flawed to essentially be saying both religions have their irrational nutcases.can you demonstrate is false?

[MidtownGuy]

The lack of a link means nothing. However, an actual link to such a denunciation would be of interest.

(Similar to finding a high ranking Catholic who freely denounces the questionable positions of those atop the Vatican.)

Agreed. Interesting yes, but hardly the barometer of Islam that Fabrizio seems to basing his whole stance upon.

Lofter's statement is in agreement with what I wrote, regarding the Vatican too. So Lofter: you are officially not a nutcase. ;-)

[Fabrizio]

There are prominent Bishops who have denounced the Vatican. The abuses have of course also been adressed by priests as well as millions of Catholics around the world.

[lofter1]

So Lofter: you are officially not a nutcase. ;-)

Wanna bet?

[Jasonik]

...by Ross Douthat...
Our culture has few taboos that can’t be violated, and our establishment has largely given up on setting standards in the first place.

Except where Islam is concerned. There, the standards are established under threat of violence, and accepted out of a mix of self-preservation and self-loathing. This is what decadence looks like: a frantic coarseness that “bravely” trashes its own values and traditions, and then knuckles under swiftly to totalitarianism and brute force. Happily, today’s would-be totalitarians are probably too marginal to take full advantage. This isn’t Weimar Germany, and Islam’s radical fringe is still a fringe, rather than an existential enemy. For that, we should be grateful. Because if a violent fringe is capable of inspiring so much cowardice and self-censorship, it suggests that there’s enough rot in our institutions that a stronger foe might be able to bring them crashing down.
American exceptionalism (http://mitworld.mit.edu/video/258), which Parker and Stone skewered in Team America (f*ck yeah!) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZdJRDpLHbw), is both the source of the rot and ironically the sacred cow still most vehemently upheld by the establishment.

I'm reminded of this comment by Butler Shaffer (http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/56461.html):

I wonder how many people who are (justifiably) upset over the creators of “South Park” being threatened by some Islamists for the content of one of their shows, are equally troubled by the United States (and some of its other allies) threatening Iran with an unprovoked nuclear attack for not adhering to American/Israeli demands to cease its nuclear research?

Regarding Douthat's ignoring ideologically motivated threats of violence from non-Muslim quarters see Glenn Greenwald (http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/04/26/douthat/index.html).

[Fabrizio]

I do love the scorecard however: Ninja wrote in his own words, "I agree with a lot of what you say" However according to midtown: "Ninjahedge was not agreeing with much you said...he's sitting on the fence.

[Fabrizio]

Jasonik: I have to say I agree with you here.

----

I think the Salon article gets it wrong however: were're talking about death threats.... but does the US press cower when it comes to others... no doubt.

[lofter1]

The very existence of a fatwa from on high wherein death is demanded for those who offer any support for the cartoons (or anything supportive of the right to create / publish such images) would seem to chill denunciations of any sort.

Imagine how terrifying it must be to allow oneself to consider stepping up against such a sentence. Similar terror has caused cartoonist Molly Norris to reconsider her call (http://www.mollynorris.com/) for Drawing Mohammed Day and has posted a drawing showing her confusion, which includes the statement:


I said that I wanted to counter fear and then I got afraid.

[Fabrizio]

Sorry to interupt but back to that salon article.... statements like "When he was Mayor of New York, Rudy Giuliani was fixated on using the power of his office (http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1768) to censor art that offended his Catholic sensibilities." The real point is that the art works were indeed shown and were not supressed. And no death threats either...

[Fabrizio]

The very existence of a fatwa from on high wherein death is demanded for those who offer any support for the cartoons (or anything supportive of the right to create / publish such images) would seem to chill denunciations of any sort.

That's why a protest by Muslims and Mulim Clerics over these threats would indeed be a "barometer" of Islam.

[MidtownGuy]

I do love the scorecard however: Ninja wrote in his own words, "I agree with a lot of what you say" However according to midtown: "Ninjahedge was not agreeing with much you said...he's sitting on the fence.

A scorecard---who is playing games?

It's interesting the way you've misrepresented NH's statements to support yourself.

He has something different to say:

You are trying to prove your point by asking what people would publicly display their support for something that people kill for? Lets bring the Nazi's back in. How many (and for how long) protested the killing of a person because they were JEWISH out in public?AND You quoted only the middle portion of this line:


I am not saying you have a point or not Fab, and I agree with a lot of what you say, I just do not think it fits well in the original discussion.I like how you pull partial quotes to support a point. Left off most of the meat. Um, let's be a little more genuine, shall we?

Look how he posts it:
ninja: (Fab) I agree with a lot of what you say


Not even the dignity of an ellipsis or two. Geez.

[MidtownGuy]

That's why a protest by Muslims and Mulim Clerics over these threats would indeed be a "barometer" of Islam.

No, it certainly wouldn't.

Now here's a question: do you have any Muslim friends that you talk politics with? I dunno, Albanians or something? How do they feel about fatwas against cartoonists? Are they all in support?

I've told you my Muslim friends' position. They speak English, and they do not support the fatwas of radical clerics.

[Fabrizio]

This statement was adressed by me: "You are trying to prove your point by asking what people would publicly display their support for something that people kill for? Lets bring the Nazi's back in. How many (and for how long) protested the killing of a person because they were JEWISH out in public?"

To which ninja replyed "I am not saying you have a point or not Fab, and I agree with a lot of what you say, I just do not think it fits well in the original discussion."

That is a civil exchange between two people who do have grounds for agreement. A far cry from me being some lone nutcase here ( "every forum has one") . And note BTW the only one who is editorializing about posters here is you.

[MidtownGuy]

Sorry to interupt but back to that salon article.... statements like "When he was Mayor of New York, Rudy Giuliani was fixated on using the power of his office (http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1768) to censor art that offended his Catholic sensibilities." The real point is that the art works were indeed shown and were not supressed. And no death threats either...

But in other cases, the extremists prevailed:

Artnet News

Mar. 30, 2007

CAVALLARO CENSORED IN NEW YORK
My Sweet Lord, artist Cosimo Cavallaro's 6-foot-tall statue of a nude Christ made from milk chocolate, scheduled to debut tomorrow at the Lab Gallery in midtown Manhattan, will not open following a campaign of intimidation by religious conservatives. The decision was made by James Knowles, president of the Roger Smith Hotel, which houses the Lab space, who said in a statement addressed to the public, "We have caused the cancellation of the exhibition and wish to affirm the dignity and responsibility of the Hotel in all its affairs." However, Lab artistic director Matt Semlersaid that the cancellation was less about dignity than it was about simple intimidation, stating that the tidal wave of emails and phone calls, which included death threats, forced their hand: "In this situation, the hotel couldn't continue to be supportive because of a fear for their own safety." In protest over the censorship, Semler submitted his resignation.

[Fabrizio]

"Now here's a question: do you have any Muslim friends that you talk politics with? I dunno, Albanians or something? "

Actually don't tell anyone: but my guy on the side (my spare) is an Albanian Muslim. Of course he and every other Muslim I know ( and I would venture to guess I have more daily contacts with Muslims the most here) are or would be against this.

But that is not my point. Reread my posts here.

[MidtownGuy]

That is a civil exchange between two people who do have grounds for agreement.Curious, then, that you saw the need to so deeply edit his statement in order to support yours. An ellipsis, at least!

[lofter1]

Meanwhile the clerics are silent.

(but they probably couldn't get a word in edgewise, anyhoo)

[Ninjahedge]

Just let it be known, I am not siding with anyone here, nor am I sitting on a fence made by two people on lines that they have chosen to draw as their own defining boundaries.

I am standing here (or sitting, as the case may be) watching and reading from my own perspective, hopefully far enough from the fore-mentioned "fence" that I can see over it, and DEFINITELY not uncomfortably perched on top of it.

But whatever. The only thing thes world actions tell me is that Human Beings stink. They are duplicitous, self interested little mongrels that do their best to try and diefy their own desires and actions. It takes many forms, but always boils down to the fact that we are far from perfect but somehow find the need to say something is and we should all follow it.

[Fabrizio]

And I am accused of the following:



Ablarc is just like you when it comes to unfair generalizations about Islam so I don't put much weight there.

Could someone please show me where I am making unfair generalizations about Islam here ? Go back and see my posts. A quote... something?

What is funny about all of this that the only person here who actually insults the believers of Islam is Midtownguy:



Anybody who believes the Earth is only 5000 years old and that we're all going to literally float naked into the sky deserves ridicule. Yes! Just like the muslim guy who thinks there are 99 virgins waiting for him in some celestial version of the Playboy Mansion. They're all stark raving mad without need to distinguish between them.

[MidtownGuy]

Nice try. My quote doesn't insult all Muslims, it singles out fundamentalists of Christianity and Islam. They are the ones who believe in a 5000 year old Earth, naked rapturous bodies floating heavenward, and 99 virgins in the sky. Like you've noted before, some people here have a problem with reading comprehension.


What is funny about all of this...What's funny is watching someone squirm when they've made a false generalization and someone calls them out on it....and then they try to turn it around to the other guy. Hilarious.

Could someone please show me where I am making unfair generalizations about Islam here ? Go back and see my posts. A quote... something?
Fabrizio's words:
The fact that there is such fear (or is it agreement?) among Muslims to condem such things in today's world tells us quite a bit. ^ An unfair generalization that I think is repulsive. You don't even bother to say "some" Muslims, or clarify that you are talking about the fundamentalist ones, as I did in my statement quoted above. It's misleading, as if Muslims in general are this way.


BY the way, I'm still waiting for a link to a photo scrapbook of your protest in Rome, your "outpouring of disgust" at the Vatican's refusal to condemn the death penalty for homosexuals.

[Fabrizio]

Will get back to the other comments in the meantime: brush up on your knowledge of Islam and the afterlife:

"O soul who is at rest, return to thy Lord, well-pleased with Him, well-pleasing Him. So enter among My servants, and enter My garden." (89:27-30)

Paradise (firdaws), also called "The Garden" (Janna), is a place of physical and spiritual pleasure, with lofty mansions (39:20, 29:58-59), delicious food and drink (52:22, 52:19, 38:51), and virgin companions called houris (56:17-19, 52:24-25, 76:19, 56:35-38, 37:48-49, 38:52-54, 44:51-56, 52:20-21). There are seven heavens (17:46, 23:88, 41:11, 65:12).

http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/beliefs/afterlife.htm

You are telling us that the belifs of Islam, the words of Muhammed and the Koran and those who believe them, deserve ridicule. .

Remember BTW that the Koran was dictated by Muhammed. Unlike the Bible the Koran was dictated directly by the Prophet: "Most of Muhammad's companions, tens of thousands, learned the Qur’an by heart, repeatedly recited in front of Muhammad for his approval or the approval of other Sahabas Muhammad approved and also compiled it in written form while he was alive."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an

More about the Houri:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri

---------------

A question for the studio audience: does anyone else here find this phrase repulse or find it to be a generalization? What is untrue about it?

"The fact that there is such fear (or is it agreement?) among Muslims to condem such things in today's world tells us quite a bit."

Is there anything unreasonable about it?

[MidtownGuy]

You are telling us that the belifs of Islam, the words of Muhammed and the Koran and those who believe them, deserve ridicule. .
I am telling you that some elements of the Bible, and some elements of the Koran, are not taken literally by all members of the faith. I never knew such a simple thing could be so hard to understand.



Remember BTW that the Koran was dictated by Muhammed. Unlike the Bible the Koran was dictated directly by the Prophet:
And you remember that fundamentalist Christians believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. Regardless of who wrote what. They believe it was divinely revealed. Do you understand that or not?


A question for the studio audience: does anyone else here find this phrase repulse or find it to be a generalization? What is untrue about it?

"The fact that there is such fear (or is it agreement?) among Muslims to condem such things in today's world tells us quite a bit."

Is there anything unreasonable about it?
Yes, it is unreasonable because it makes a generalization, and it is a bigoted remark. If you want to amend your statement, to be less sweeping, I would welcome that. What exactly is your point here? If you are you now saying that you agree with me, that you only meant some Muslims condone cartoonist death threats and executions of gays, GREAT! As it stands, the original statement is ignorant and over generalized.

[MidtownGuy]

brush up on your knowledge of Islam and the afterlife

With you as my tutor, I suppose. Don't make us laugh.

But I'm glad you're so pro Muslim. Now, let's ban some minarets, right?

[Fabrizio]

It's not Islam according to Midtown... it is Islam according to Muhammed.

-----

My statement "The fact that there is such fear (or is it agreement?) among Muslims to condem such things in today's world tells us quite a bit." Is I believe perfectly rational with nothing offensive.

But I am asking others here: "does anyone else here find this phrase repulse or find it to be a generalization? What is untrue about it?"

-------

"But I'm glad you're so pro Muslim",

^ And while we're at it does this make any sense?

[ablarc]

MidtownGuy, I think you're losing this one.

I don't want to get into a dispute with you about how and why, so I'll leave it at that.

[MidtownGuy]

Will get back to the other comments
Good, I'm anxiously waiting for those pictures from Rome. In lieu of pictures, I'll accept a link to any statement you've ever made online expressing your "outpouring of disgust" at the Vatican for its failure to condemn the death penalty for gays. Otherwise, by the same logic you've applied to Muslims, you must support it, agree with it, or just be afraid.

[Fabrizio]

^ I will get to that.

----

I really want to know if anyone else here finds this comment to be "a bigoted remark."

"The fact that there is such fear (or is it agreement?) among Muslims to condem such things in today's world tells us quite a bit."

[MidtownGuy]

MidtownGuy, I think you're losing this one.

I don't want to get into a dispute with you about how and why, so I'll leave it at that.

Ablarc, you're a fervent Christian, so your impression is no surprise. Maybe we just need more Muslims around here to balance things out?

And if you're going to make a statement like that, you might as well substantiate it.

[MidtownGuy]

I really want to know if anyone else here finds this comment to be "a bigoted remark."

"The fact that there is such fear (or is it agreement?) among Muslims to condem such things in today's world tells us quite a bit."

So it's like the link request again...if no one out of the small number of people commenting on this thread see it as bigoted, I guess that is supposed to mean something. Meanwhile, tell us, why couldn't you qualify the statement with the word "some". If you are not lumping Muslims in one big pool of agreement, couldn't you at least do that?

[Fabrizio]

I did not know ablarc was "a fervent Christain".

Well we learn something new here about the members of this forum everyday from Midtown.

---


So it's like the link request again...if no one out of the small number of people commenting on this thread see it as bigoted, I guess that is supposed to mean something. Meanwhile, tell us, why couldn't you qualify the statement with the word "some". If you are not lumping Muslims in one big pool of agreement, couldn't you at least do that?

Because I believe the statement is perfectly fine as is.

[MidtownGuy]

Guess you don't read much around here? Ablarc has, on numerous occasions, shared his thoughts on the matter.

In case you need the definition in English:
fervent: having or showing great warmth or intensity of spirit, feeling, enthusiasm

[MidtownGuy]

Because I believe the statement is perfectly fine as is.

I'm happy for you, but do not deny that it IS a generalization.

[MidtownGuy]

But whatever. The only thing thes world actions tell me is that Human Beings stink. They are duplicitous, self interested little mongrels that do their best to try and diefy their own desires and actions. It takes many forms, but always boils down to the fact that we are far from perfect but somehow find the need to say something is and we should all follow it. Agreed. The extremists come in all flavors, Muslim and CHRISTIAN TOO.

[Fabrizio]

Midtown I know English well enough to know what "fervent" + "Chistian" means.

And I know it well enough to know that the phrase: "The fact that there is such fear (or is it agreement?) among Muslims to condem such things in today's world tells us quite a bit." does not require the word "some". The choice of the term "among Muslims" takes care of that.

[MidtownGuy]

If you are not lumping all Muslims together, your meaning would indeed have been more clear by inclusion of the word "some", or any other qualifying word that would tell us you acknowledge the Muslims who think otherwise. As it was stated, it was a generalization. Period. If that was not your meaning, just say so, and we can move on...another thing I'd like to understand is why you haven't acknowledged that Christians are known to make death threats too.

[Fabrizio]

(my apologies to the forum)

"If you are not lumping all Muslims together, your meaning would indeed have been more clear by inclusion of the word "some", or any other qualifying word that would suggest there are also Muslims who think otherwise."

^ Brings pedantic to a new level. Uh... the qualifying word is "among".

(A kid'll eat ivy too. Would'nt you?)

[MidtownGuy]

No, it just shows how generalized your statement was, and how easily it could have been written otherwise.

But it's OK, I take your word for it now that you realize there are plenty of Muslims that think otherwise. But wait, if that's the case, why did you ask for a link to Muslim disagreement, as if it none exists? What was your point then? Because it is getting lost.

[MidtownGuy]

fabrizio:
The real point is that the art works were indeed shown and were not supressed. And no death threats either... Now about those death threats...you aren't saying Christians don't make them, right?


And about this:

Will you please show me the outpouring of disgust by Islamic Imams over the hanging of 2 teenage boys in Iran for being homosexual? You still haven't shown me your "outpouring of disgust" at the Vatican's position on the death penalty for gays... a protest, a link, a statement, anything? And if you don't, does that mean you're in agreement with all of it?

[Fabrizio]

fabrizio:Now about those death threats...you aren't saying Christians don't make them, right?




Read my posts. I mentioned Christian death threats.

---------



I'm glad that the death penalty for homosexuality is such a point of concern in the above posts... but just a couple of years ago, there was a proposed U.N. resolution that called on governments around the world to stop the criminalization and death penalty for homosexuality. The Vatican opposed it. Fabrizio...since you're obviously so concerned about the Iranian death penalty for gays, I assume you were in Rome protesting the Vatican position on the matter as emphatically as you hold up the case of the Iranians. Silence is agreement according to you, right? So, I assume you were there in public, displaying your outpouring of disgust against the Church's position. Bravo. Send me the link.

Actually in a statement about the resolution the Church said it: "opposed the death penalty and other harsh repression of gays and lesbians" and ""The Holy See continues to advocate that every sign of unjust discrimination towards homosexual persons should be avoided and urges States to do away with criminal penalties against them."

However the Church did not sign on.

Please note as you wrote: "there was a proposed U.N. resolution that called on governments around the world to stop the criminalization and death penalty for homosexuality."

While the tiny Holy See is "a country" it also *is* the Vatican, a religion. Which would have made the Catholic Church the only world-wide religion to be signing. It is understandable that the Church would stay out of this. The church is already against "the criminalization and death penalty for homosexuality."

Now, that is the Church's excuse for not signing on: but note the controversy about the declaration even for the US which was against signing on until Obama was elected:

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/US_supports_UN_gay_rights_declaration

Here's list of those that signed and those that opposed and a bit about the Vatican's stance on the subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_declaration_on_sexual_orientation_and_gender_id entity

[MidtownGuy]

I'm glad you made the 4:27 edit, realizing that we will sign under Obama. That isn't what you had written at first. But I'm glad you've updated your knowledge a bit. You previously wrote something about the US not signing on, and asking me "what's your excuse?" Hmmm....

My answer to your deleted question would have been: crazy Christians in charge.


The Church did not oppose the UN resolution. Now who is spinning? They didn't sign it either, did they?

And according to the link you just provided:
"Vatican City also opposes the resolution but on its introduction made a statement condemning legal discrimination against LGBT persons,"

They opposed it. Now spin some more. Tell us how not signing conveys support.

[MidtownGuy]

Read my posts. I mentioned Christian death threats.

I just want to make clear...you do acknowledge there are Christian death threats against people, right? And that art exhibits have been closed down, right?

[Fabrizio]

They opposed the resolution, while making the statement that it "opposes the death penalty and other harsh repression of gays and lesbians". So whatever.

Also note in the list of opposing states the Holy See is not listed. So I don't know what that is all about.

you asked:


You still haven't shown me your "outpouring of disgust" at the Vatican's position on the death penalty for gays.

I agree with Church's position.

[MidtownGuy]

When I used the word "oppose" it wasn't "spin". I was about to ask you to do a simple google search.
If you type in "Vatican opposed UN resolution death penalty", and press your return key, you will see the repeated use of the word "opposed".

op·pose
–verb (used with object)
1.
to act against or provide resistance to; combat.
2.
to stand in the way of; hinder; obstruct.
3.
to set as an opponent or adversary.
4.
to be hostile or adverse to, as in opinion: to oppose a resolution in a debate.
5.
to set as an obstacle or hindrance.
6.
to set against in some relation, esp. as to demonstrate a comparison or contrast: to oppose advantages to disadvantages.
7.
to use or take as being opposite or contrary.
8.
to set (something) over against something else in place, or to set (two things) so as to face or be opposite to one another.


^take your pick.




I agree with Church's position.Please tell us, in your own words, what that is.
The statements I've read from the Vatican trying to explain it are pure doublespeak.

In any case, I think it's pretty clear that you talk a good game about intolerance on the other side of the world, but when it's in your own backyard, we get excuses.

[Jasonik]

I wish I were clever enough to come up with a joke about this thread's tendency toward cartoonish transference...

[ZippyTheChimp]

A synopsis of the thread so far:

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/162784/162784,1238266573,4/stock-vector-a-lot-of-easy-editable-maths-formulas-in-vector-seamless-pattern-27515599.jpg

[MidtownGuy]

LOL. But that about sums up a lot of the political threads. Sometimes, going back to the Architecture section after getting sucked into a back-n-forth like this, it feels like a splash of cool water. Architectural discussion seems more rational...relaxing even...when people disagree about it, things don't get so...twisted.

To sum up here neatly on my part: Christians shouldn't be throwing stones from glass houses.

I was going back and reading some more of the early thread and I think brooklynrider made some excellent points. I won't quote extensively or anything but basically he was saying there are lots of violent things we're doing on this end, it isn't all about a cartoon, and "If these people are crazed and inhuman, no one will object when we bomb the hell out of them." I agree with this and would like to add that the corporate-war-machine-media in the US likes to focus extensively on these Muslim death threats and use it for as much Muslim bashing mileage as they can get. But if you look on google there are enough Christian death threats toward writers and artists...everyone from JK Rowling to Elton John, that I'm confident in saying all the religions have plenty of nutcases to go around.

Speaking of which, BR also posted a piece by Jackie Mason regarding Jews and how benign they are... I guess Mason doesn't know what it's like to be attacked by Zionist settlers.

[Ninjahedge]

MTG, the mere fact that they were given a different appelation kind of indicates that people, in general, consider them a bit different than your standard Jewish individual.

The problem comes when people start seeing everyone as a single stereotype or generalization, whether that be Jewish, Christian, Muslim or any denomination of them (Last time I checked, there were some differences in the Christian church that had people KILLING each other over what could be considered minor differences in this day and age).

The problem is, people are people. We have not evolved past the point where that generalization kept us alive. Our brain was not built for this kind of globalization, and it is easily evidenced in the restriction of scope that most display when questioned about something from outside their immediate daily exposure.

I am afraid that no matter how much we proceed in society and civilization, we will still be brought back to the same problems our brain stems were not designed to handle.



At least we are not flinging poo at each other......



Much.

[MidtownGuy]

I agree with a good deal of what you say.

Regarding the settlers (and many other Jews too)- they believe their god gave them that land, like some kind of cosmic real estate agent. We're told it's the "Promised Land". Of course it's really just tribal nonsense.

A few years ago I thoroughly enjoyed reading the book A History of God, by Karen Armstrong. It goes back thousands of years and investigates the origins of Judaism, Christianity, Islam and monotheistic thought itself. I read about the early tribes in Canaan and their wars with different peoples and how they developed this idea of the real estate agent in the sky. Today we see the Jewish settlers playing out the same old BS. They have no intent on letting Palestinians live peacefully without threat of violence. The point is to drive them away and accomplish their religious dream of Eretz Israel. From the Jordan River to the Sea.

It's another religion whose most extremist adherents perpetuate violence in the name of their God. They routinely go into Palestinian villages as large armed groups and beat people, burn olive trees, etc., and this time when IDF tried to stop them, they attacked them too. The settlers claim to be just out "hiking". LOL.
In the news today, BBC headline Israeli border police unit to tackle settler violence (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8651491.stm). "Israel's border police are to post a special task force in the northern West Bank to stop settler violence against Palestinians, the military says."

[ablarc]

^ Well, we know what you think the problem is. Why don't you tell us the solution.

[MidtownGuy]

It comes in stages. First, freeze settlement building in the West Bank. It is the only way things can even begin to move forward.
The Obama administration seemed to understand this.

[ablarc]

Well, that's an essential beginning, but it's only the first step on a very long and winding road.

How, among other things, do you cope with the geographical fact that Jewish and Palestinian settlements are interspersed?

If you don't dismantle some settlements, people will have to learn to live amicably close to their former foes.

And how will they allocate government? Will there be archipelagos of jurisdiction awash in hostile seas?

[Ninjahedge]

Echo!


Anyway, nobody said it would be easy. If it was it would be done by now (in fantasy land that is).

The ONLY true way to get this to work is to remove the idea of a "homeland" from each. You need to depose the current regime completely and put in a neutral 3rd party political regime.

That will not solve the inherent theological hatred that is rooted in territorial posessiveness, but it will at least make it less of an us vs them head to head territorial battle.


you could also give them all big screen TV's, HBO and KFC's chicken "sandwiches" and watch them sink to the same level of political apathy the US has... but then you risk Rupert Murdoch taking over.... :eek:

[ablarc]

^ From the standpoint of implementability, this is much less likely than pitch battle, including mustard gas.

[Ninjahedge]

Mustard Gas on Pastrami.

[MidtownGuy]

Well, that's an essential beginning, but it's only the first step on a very long and winding road.

Reminds me of a favorite Christmas special with a certain catchy song:

Put one foot in front of the other
And soon you'll be walking cross the floor
Put one foot in front of the other
And soon you'll be walking out the door

You never will get where you're going
If you never get up on your feet
Come on, there's a good tail wind blowing
A fast walking man is hard to beat

Put one foot in front of the other
And soon you'll be walking cross the floor
Put one foot in front of the other
And soon you'll be walking out the door

If you want to change your direction
If your time of life is at hand
Well don�t be the rule be the exception
A good way to start is to stand

Put one foot in front of the other
And soon you'll be walking cross the floor
Put one foot in front of the other
And soon you'll be walking out the door

If I want to change the reflection
I see in the mirror each morn
You mean that it's just my election
To vote for a chance to be reborn

(repeat chorus twice)

^You've got to start somewhere when the road is long.


How, among other things, do you cope with the geographical fact that Jewish and Palestinian settlements are interspersed?

Yes, the Israelis are very clever in the way they've carved land up and changed the facts on the ground. They shouldn't be rewarded by being allowed to keep it that way. They are illegal according to international law anyway. The Israeli government could start by putting an end to the government subsidies and special deals that encourage Jewish settlers. Some settlements would shrivel up without all the government assistance they get. The hardliners that dig in their heels will have to be forcibly removed. The settlements are really fortified military positions and they need to go. Hard? Yes. Necessary for a two state solution: absolutely. People have been moved before. The population exchange between Greece and Turkey was extremely difficult but it had to be done.


If you don't dismantle some settlements, people will have to learn to live amicably close to their former foes.
They must be dismantled, unless you are advocating a one state solution. That would probably be the best but very unlikely; a state that is not founded on religion or favoring one group over the other. The Jews will never accept that, they are determined to keep a state with a Jewish Majority, so we're left with a two state solution, and that requires dismantling settlements.


you could also give them all big screen TV's, HBO and KFC's chicken "sandwiches" and watch them sink to the same level of political apathy the US has
I know this is in jest but it brings up another of the next steps. Making life bearable, and treating both sides like human beings. Palestinian society no longer has the healthy functioning social structures you need for people to lead normal, non-radicalized lives. Students can't even get to school because of closures and checkpoints, people can't access enough water (it's mostly piped away to Jewish areas), and their agriculture has been crushed by the Israelis. Olive trees are burned down routinely. Palestinians are cut off from the land their crops are supposed to be growing on. People watch relatives die in ambulances because they're not allowed to get to a hospital in time. It creates desperation. BEGIN TO REPAIR PALESTINIAN SOCIETY which at this point will take an international effort. You put people in a big cage and treat them like animals.. guess what... they start to act like animals. They need schools and hospitals, jobs, water, and food. Give people the pieces of the puzzle and they will start to put them back together for themselves.
Of course, all this goes against the plans of the Zionists: they just want the Palestinians gone from their "God given" land. Imprison them, bomb them, terrorize them...make life unbearable. The Israelis have time on their side, and the U.S. government unfortunately.

[MidtownGuy]

Came across these quotes on HuffPost yesterday and I rather like them:

EACH NATION HAS CREATED A GOD, AND THE GOD HAS ALWAYS RESEMBLED HIS CREATORS.
Ingersoll

THE HISTORY OF INTELLECTUAL PROGRESS IS WRITTEN IN THE LIVES OF INFIDELS.
Ingersoll

[lofter1]

Another Cartoon Attack

The Daily Dish (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/05/another-cartoon-attack.html)
May 12, 2010

Lars Vilks Attacked at Uppsala University

VIDEO (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/05/another-cartoon-attack.html) of the aftermath of the attack on Vilks, showing subsequent attacks in the lecture hall on Vilks & responding police.

Radio Free Europe has details (http://www.rferl.org/content/Swedish_Muhammad_Cartoonist_Attacked_At_Lecture/2039201.html):


Lars Vilks, a Swedish cartoonist whose sketch of the Prophet Muhammad enraged many Muslims, was head-butted today while giving a lecture about freedom of speech. Vilks, who depicted the Prophet Muhammad with the body of a dog in 2007, said he was assaulted by a man sitting on the front row as he spoke at the University of Uppsala, about 70 kilometers from Stockholm. A spokesman for the Uppsala police said about 20 people tried to attack Vilks after interrupting his lecture, adding that the police had to intervene to stop them.

Hamilton Nolan fumes (http://gawker.com/5537046/stop-attacking-the-god-damn-muhammad-cartoonists?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+gawker%2Ffull+%28Gawker%29):


The fact that so many American media (http://gawker.com/388948/us-newspapers-remembered-as-cowards) and academic (http://gawker.com/5336561/yale-press-sides-with-religious-fanatics-over-own-author) institutions have caved into the imagined fear of such religious fascists is shameful. If the free societies of the world can't stand up for a person's right to draw a ****ing cartoon without becoming the victim of a multinational assassination plot (http://gawker.com/5489743/the-strange-case-of-jihad-jane-blonde-terrorist-from-pennsylvania-and-myspace), well, we lose. And if people's faith in their god is not strong enough to allow them to laugh off and dismiss an offensive little drawing, they lose.

[MidtownGuy]

Good grief, listen to the lady zealot shouting "Allahhu akhbar" in the background like a crazed banshee. Then you see those calm Swedes still seated, looking around like, "what the heck?!"

[lofter1]

Lars Vilks, Swedish Mohammed Cartoonist, Target Of Suspected Arson

The HUFFINGTON POST (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/15/lars-vilks-swedish-mohamm_n_577614.html)
LOUISE NORDSTROM
May 15, 2010

STOCKHOLM — The home of a Swedish artist who once drew a cartoon of the Prophet Muhammad as a dog has been hit by a suspected arson attack, police said Saturday.

Lars Vilks, who lives in Nyhamnslage in southern Sweden, was not at home during the attack late Friday night and no one was reported injured.

It was the latest in a week of attacks on the 53-year-old cartoonist, who was assaulted Tuesday by a man while he lectured at a university and saw his Web site apparently attacked by hacker on Wednesday.

Police were alerted just before noon Saturday, as people passing by the artist's house noted that several windows had been smashed. When officers arrived, they discovered plastic bottles filled with gasoline and fire damage on the surface of the building. Attackers are also suspected of having tried setting the inside of house on fire, but the flames are thought to have fizzled out.

Police have no suspects in the case, police Spokeswoman Sofie Osterheim said.

Vilks, who often jokes about the threats he has received since his 2007 sketch of Muhammad, including from al-Qaida, said the latest attack doesn't raise his fears more than usual.

"I'm not really more afraid than what I think is realistic," he told the Associated Press over the telephone.

Vilks has faced numerous threats over his drawing. Earlier this year, U.S. investigators said Vilks was the target of an alleged murder plot involving Colleen LaRose, an American woman who dubbed herself "Jihad Jane," and who now faces life in prison. She has pleaded not guilty.

Vilks depicted Muhammad more than a year after 12 Danish newspaper cartoons of the prophet sparked furious protests in Muslim countries in 2006. Images of Muhammad, even favorable ones, are considered blasphemous by many Muslims.

[ablarc]

There are some crimes, it seems, that are sanctioned by God --at least when he goes by the title, 'Allah'.

[Fabrizio]

^ yo Lofter, remember you asked about Imams that call-out the Radicals? And why we can't seem to find any? Well, good news! The NYTimes has found one in Germany. Article below:

(oh... and again you can see here how modern-day Islam and Christianity are just...you know...like, you know... total equivalents)

Munich Imam Tries to Dull Lure of Radical Islam

Excepts from the article:

"MUNICH — Hesham Shashaa looked twice at the display on his cellphone, staring at the number. “It’s either a person who needs help or someone who wants to kill me,” he said."

"Mr. Shashaa, an imam at the Darul Quran mosque in Munich, follows the strictest form of Islam, Salafi. But the people who want to kill him are Muslims."

“They use the religion for their personal aims and declare war on Jews and Christians, but I want people to follow what Islam really says,” said Mr. Shashaa, who with his beard and traditional clothes has sometimes been likened to Osama bin Laden. But his philosophy is quite different.

"A growing number of imams in Europe and the Middle East have denounced suicide missions and terrorist acts. Many of these imams, however, still view Al Qaeda, the Taliban or Hamas as legitimate resistance movements, while Mr. Shashaa openly declares that they are violating the tenets of Islam."

"Threats come with the territory, so now Mr. Shashaa travels with former students who act as his bodyguards."

“This man is a traitor,” wrote one critic in a posting on a jihadist Web site. “He needs a lesson,” said another, who published pictures of Mr. Shashaa meeting with police officers.

"He has a complex relationship with German law enforcement officials, who see his message as crucial and unique here and continually press him to do more."

“We know that he speaks and works against terrorism groups like Al Qaeda or the Taliban, and that is important,” said a senior German security official, speaking on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to make official statements about Mr. Shashaa. “He is the only example who is doing it in this way here in Germany, and in this sense he is effective.”

"He has three wives, marrying the later two in ceremonies recognized by his mosque if not the state. The wives and 10 children all live in his Munich home."

"Mr. Shashaa talks with regret about the young men he could not dissuade, including a 19-year-old of Tunisian descent, who lived in northern Germany. Visiting the young man’s mosque, he sat talking with him and two children. “They were just talking about war and killing of unbelievers,” he said, shaking his head. “They were totally brainwashed.”

Full article: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/16/world/europe/16imam.html?ref=europe

[MidtownGuy]

^ yo Lofter, remember you asked about Imams that call-out the Radicals? And why we can't seem to find any? Well, good news! The NYTimes has found one in Germany. Article below:What a complete load of bull. Just sad and pitiful. In your own words to others here, "are you really that poor?" Open a Google window and look around a bit. You might be surprised at what you'd find.

So how much would you like to make a bet that there are no search results (beyond one guy in Germany:rolleyes:) for imams speaking out against terrorism and religious extremism? Because I can find plenty. Maybe you can't find any, because you're looking up your arse.

[ablarc]

http://www.google.com/search?q=imams+speaking+out+against+terrorism+and+ religious+extremism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
.

[Fabrizio]

Midtownguy: Bull?

Lofter asked a question. Go back and read the responses (none posted... explained as mostly due to a lack of such statements from Imams being in English... or whatever.)

And please note that one of the quotes I purposely pulled from the article is the following: "A growing number of imams in Europe and the Middle East have denounced suicide missions and terrorist acts...."

Again: Poor ....and unable to read.

[Ninjahedge]

Guys, you both have great points, but could you start leaving off those last few sentences in your posts?

We all know you are great pissers but we do not need to see another contest.

[Alonzo-ny]

What a complete load of bull. Just sad and pitiful. In your own words to others here, "are you really that poor?" Open a Google window and look around a bit. You might be surprised at what you'd find.

So how much would you like to make a bet that there are no search results (beyond one guy in Germany:rolleyes:) for imams speaking out against terrorism and religious extremism? Because I can find plenty. Maybe you can't find any, because you're looking up your arse.

This is uncalled for. I don't want to have to get into this nonsense again. No more posts like this or it's a week off. Especially when you edit the post to make it even more offensive.

[MidtownGuy]

(none posted... explained as mostly due to a lack of such statements from Imams being in English... or whatever.)

Like I asked before, would you like to make a bet that such statements can't be found? Regardless of one of the quotes you pulled, the dismissive and mocking tone of this statement:


remember you asked about Imams that call-out the Radicals? And why we can't seem to find any? Well, good news! The NYTimes has found one in Germany.

tells us all we need to know about your poor perspective. The simple fact is that plenty of such statements have been issued. If you don't think so, just google. Like ablarc did. In two minutes I found statements of condemnation signed by hundreds of Muslim scholars, imams, and mosque associations. Why can't you?

[Fabrizio]

In two minutes I found statements of condemnation signed by hundreds of Muslim scholars, imams, and mosque associations. Why can't you?

*sigh*

If my own post says: "A growing number of imams in Europe and the Middle East have denounced suicide missions and terrorist acts...." Then I really don't know what you are frothing at the mouth over.

And about those statements of condemnation, here's a quote for you from reformislam.org:

"Islam, in its present form, is not compatible with principles of freedom and democracy. "


Go figure.

[MidtownGuy]

I guess that bolded quote is supposed to prove something.
___

I'm really glad you noted the statement in your own post. Now, do you also remember this:


^ yo Lofter, remember you asked about Imams that call-out the Radicals? And why we can't seem to find any? Well, good news! The NYTimes has found one in Germany.^yes, that really sounds convincing. Not sarcastic or anything.

...and because when you say this:


(oh... and again you can see here how modern-day Islam and Christianity are just...you know...like, you know... total equivalents)
you aren't being sarcastic either; your position all along has been that Muslims speaking against this are numerous.
Flashback: you are the person that has been trying to make it sound like Muslims against extremist violence are SO hard to find...you even challenged us to find some...(there are so many Muslims who have made statements, I thought that was too stupid to dignify with actual references).

Now we're supposed to believe that fabrizio, in fact, has actually been telling us how so many Muslims are denouncing this stuff. He picked out a quote on a recent post, so yeah, he get's it now.