Hotel Pennsylvania - by McKim Mead & White - to be replaced by 15 Penn Plaza

[Gulcrapek]

By Hillier:



Vornado Tower
60 floors
430 units
Retail and residential
1.3 million square feet


http://www.hillier.com (http://www.hillier.com/) > projects > residential > Vornado Tower

[londonlawyer]

Wow...

That's a nice looking building. Where is it supposed to be? I hope not on the Penn Hotel site, as I think that this is a nice old building that should not be demolished.

[RandySavage]

I believe you can see Hotel Pennsylvania in one of those renderings, so I don't think it's on the same site, but across the street (35th).

[macreator]

I hope its built. 33rd street could use some more buildings on the west side to distract from the fugly supertall 1 Penn Plaza.

[Derek2k3]

I believe you can see Hotel Pennsylvania in one of those renderings, so I don't think it's on the same site, but across the street (35th).

Yea, this seems to be 435 7th, where Vornado has already built the retail base.The rendering seems inaccurate in that the site is directly parallel to the ESB but it's rendered as if it's a block south where the Hotel Penn actually sits.

http://www.pbase.com/archit_kderek2k3/image/43857028.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/archit_kderek2k3/image/43857027.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/archit_kderek2k3/image/43857026.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/archit_kderek2k3/image/43857025.jpg

[NYguy]

Vornado has a lot of the property in that area.

[macreator]

So where is this building exactly? Are we talking about 6th avenue and 34th or 33rd and 5th?

[kliq6]

its above the H&M on the Southeastern side of 34th Street across from Macy's, the Pennsylvania is one bloack south of this, Vornado owns that as well and may demolish that to build a tower one day as well.

Orginally Vornado was going to build a smal office building at this site, i assume those plans are scrapped because of a continued weak commercial sector growth

[I LOVE THE SOCCER]

Beatiful building!

[londonlawyer]

I wonder if this building is likely to rise soon. If it's residential, I don't see why it wouldn't.

I'd love to see more projects on the remaining blighted blocks on 6th and on B'Way in the 20's and 30's.

[kliq6]

There is no date on this in terms of a construction schedule so who knows if this is a new or old idea

[krulltime]

By Hillier:



Vornado Tower
55 floors
430 units
Retail and residential
1.3 million square feet


http://www.hillier.com (http://www.hillier.com/) > projects > residential > Vornado Tower

Nice find!

I sure hope that it gets built... That area is going to be so and so much better in that not so far future.

[Derek2k3]

The base there now.
http://www.pbase.com/archit_kderek2k3/image/43866970.jpg
SOTA Glazing Inc.
http://www.sotawall.com/

http://www.pbase.com/archit_kderek2k3/image/43866930.jpg
The proposed office tower that was to rise above it.

[kliq6]

i like both designs, however id think an office tower would work better in that area, there are not many stores, grocery stores or other amenities, but hey there building in Lower Manhattan without this stuff so what would stop them

[JMGarcia]

The more important reason for it being an office tower is being across the street from Penn, it has some of the best transportation in the city.

[kliq6]

Good point, still no word if this is a current project or something they designed awhile back, Nothing on Vornado's website either

[Gulcrapek]

Ok, I'm gonna change my first post, I suppose five floors of podium plus fifty-five of apartments makes sixty...

[NoyokA]

Build it!

[NoyokA]

How is that on 34th street if the Empire State Building is on the left?

He’s right sometimes renderings use artistic license in order to familiarize people with the neighborhood or improve the surroundings for the buildings architecture.

[kliq6]

Its on Seventh, it wil be bult above the H&M, if your in that area you can take a look and see it

[mkeit]

I don't know if it is related, but the foundation for a large structure is being excavated between 31st ST and 32nd ST just east of 7th Ave.

[kliq6]

different building

[dbhstockton]

He’s right sometimes renderings use artistic license in order to familiarize people with the neighborhood or improve the surroundings for the buildings architecture.

Yeah right. This is the Pennsylvania Hotel site. Observe the the notched corner of the H&M in the model:

http://cakonos.image.pbase.com/image/43857027.jpg

That's the other massive old hotel in the rendering. What was it called, the Statler?

[Derek2k3]

hmm..Doesn't the building next to the Hotel Penn rise taller, in a series of setbacks and I don't remember it having a series of flags like that. But in the model the tower is def.on the Hotel Penn site, you can even see the Manhattan Mall behind it.

Also,a 2.3 msf tower could rise where Hotel Penn sits,seems kinda foolish to demolish the hotel and build a res tower half that size.

[krulltime]

yeah what is wrong with the hotel there. can they just fixed it up and still built the tower behind it or something?

I kind of like the building... but to be replece with that half ass shops building or whatever it is... I dont like this.

[NoyokA]

hmm..Doesn't the building next to the Hotel Penn rise taller, in a series of setbacks and I don't remember it having a series of flags like that. But in the model the tower is def.on the Hotel Penn site, you can even see the Manhattan Mall behind it.

Also,a 2.3 msf tower could rise where Hotel Penn sits,seems kinda foolish to demolish the hotel and build a res tower half that size.

Its fishy, this building is severely under zoned, a million square feet, for its site.

[kliq6]

Its funny how for the longest time Vornado was against getting into the residential market now they have 731, soon to be this and they bought another property on 65 th and Madison today, its about time they got in. Mark my words they will be a Fortune 500 firm one day

[londonlawyer]

Did they buy a nice property at 65th and Mad. or a lousy one that will be redeveloped?

[kliq6]

this is all i saw from crainsny.com

Vornado to buy Madison Ave. building for $158 million
Vornado Realty Trust agreed to buy a residential and retail building, located at 759 Madison Ave., for about $158 million.

The 94,100-square-foot building, which is situated between 65th and 66th streets, contains 37 rental apartments and 9,100 square feet of retail space. The retail space, which rents for about $550 a square foot, is fully occupied by Basso, Gaultier and Krizia stores.

Vornado, a real estate investment trust based in Manhattan, has seen profits jump thanks to the strong market. The REIT, which has some 14.3 million square feet of office space in the New York City area, acquired almost $329 million worth of real estate in 2004. In March, Vornado acquired the retail space of the former Westbury Hotel, which houses luxury retailers including Cartier, Chloé and Gucci, for $113 million.

[Pottebaum]

I'm confused about this project;
Were there two proposals for the same site? Which one's getting built?

[londonlawyer]

Isn't this the same project as is discussed in this thread? If so, it's not on the Pennsylvania Hotel site.

NEW YORK - new 1 msf residential on 8th Ave
From the Penn Station redevelopment springs this new tower:

COMMERCIAL PROPERTY NEWS

Residential Plans, Financing Helps The Related Cos. and Vornado Land $1.5B Manhattan RR Station

July 18, 2005
By Paul Rosta


A plan that uses air rights for residential development rather than office space, along with some $300 million in financing, helped win a team of The Related Cos. and Vornado Realty Trust the contract to develop the $818-million Moynihan Station project in Midtown Manhattan, a state official told CPN today. The new station will serve as an extension to the existing Pennsylvania Station, which lies under Madison Square Garden between Seventh and Eighth avenues.

The total value of the development, including the station, plus retail, hotel and residential development, is expected to be in the $1.5-billion range, according to Charles Gargano, chairman of both the Empire State Development Corp. and the Moynihan Station Development Corp.

The Related/Vorando team was selected from a field of three finalists. Others included a joint venture of Tishman Speyer Properties and Jones Lang LaSalle Inc. and Boston Properties Inc. New York State Gov. George Pataki and Michael Bloomberg, mayor of New York City, officially announced the winning team and unveiled the design at a press conference held in front of the James A. Farley Post Office Building, which will be transformed into the new intermodal station. Also in attendance was a delighted Maura Moynihan, daughter of the late New York Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, for whom the project is named.

Gargano told CPN after the news conference that the other proposals included plans to build office space on part of the Moynihan Station site. Funding sources include $380 million in state money, $158 million from the city, and about $300 million from the developers. The $818-million price tag includes the $230 million cost of acquiring the building from the U.S. Postal Service, which is a quasi-governmental entity.

Today's announcement arrived a month after another giant Midtown Manhattan project, a proposed $2-billion stadium for the New York Jets, was scuttled by opposition from New York State Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver. At the press conference, Bloomberg predicted that the Moynihan Station development will be an anchor for the neighborhoods that will emerge from the Hudson Yards district, where the proposed stadium was to have been built. The recently rezoned 60-block Hudson Yards district will include 14,000 new apartments, 20 acres of new parks, and the $1.4 billion expansion of the Jacob K. Javits Center.

Details of the Moynihan Station proposal are still forthcoming, but The Related Cos. and Vornado will build up to 1 million square feet from air rights for residential housing across Eighth Avenue from the building, 300,000 square feet of space for the train station, and 850,000 square feet that will feature retail space, a merchandise mart, restaurants, and a boutique hotel. The postal service will retain 250,000 square feet in the Farley Building.

The new station will offer 11 new boarding platforms for Long Island Rail Road, NJ Transit, and Amtrak passengers. Construction is scheduled to start next year and be completed in 2011.

Development is slated to begin later this year.

The project's centerpiece will be the transformation of the 93-year-old James A. Farley Post Office Building into a 400,000-square-foot intermodal transit facility designed by a team of James Carpenter Design Associates in collaboration with Hellmuth, Obata + Kassabaum.

Elements of their design will recall the original 1910 Pennsylvania Station, whose demolition in 1964 helped spark the historic preservation movement. Penn Station's west concourse will tie the station to the new facility located across Eighth Avenue. The state acquired the 1.4-million-square-foot Farley Building from the U.S. Postal Service for $230 million in October 2002.

[kliq6]

Penn Hotel and this are different site, this site is on 8th and 33rd were there is a Duane Reade

[Alonzo-ny]

Theres a duane reade everywhere

[pianoman11686]

Yeah but this particular one has a huge colorful mural on top of it on the wall of the building just north of it. I think it's an ad by Delta Air Lines.

[Alonzo-ny]

Oh yeah ive noticed that mural recently on my travels, its cool, must have taken a while though

[pianoman11686]

Vornado to buy Manhattan Mall for $689M

The one million-square-foot Herald Square mall houses 60 retailers.

By: David Jones
Published: November 28, 2006 - 11:50 am

Vornado Realty Trust said Tuesday that it agreed to buy the Manhattan Mall, located at Sixth Avenue and 33rd street, for $689 million.

The one million-square-foot building has 164,000 square feet of retail space and 812,000 square feet of office space, mainly occupied by Bank of America and Interpublic Group of Cos.

Manhattan Mall, built in 1910 as Gimbel's department store, has struggled to retain retail tenants over the years. Manhattan-based Argent Ventures and Lehman Bros. acquired the mixed-use facility in 1998 for $135 million, and by 2002, converted about 450,000 square feet into office space for Bank of America and Interpublic.

Numerous tenants, including Abraham & Strauss and Sterns, have anchored the 13-story mall, which houses 60 retail stores, including Aeropostale, Victoria's Secret and Brookstone.

The deal, slated to close early next year, includes 250,000 square feet of air rights, which would allow Paramus, N.J.-based Vornado to build additional floors.

Vornado also owns the nearby 1.4 million-square-foot Hotel Pennsylvania, located behind the mall on Seventh Avenue.

The company was unavailable for immediate comment.

Entire contents © 2006 Crain Communications, Inc.

[kliq6]

This shouldnt be posted here they have nothing to do with each other

[Alonzo-ny]

i thought the hotel penn was going to be demolished? if so something promising could emerge!

[kliq6]

Vornado has been talking about demoing that hotel for 5 years. It took them 10 to get the Alexanders site going so dont hold your breath

[pianoman11686]

This shouldnt be posted here they have nothing to do with each other

Neither was the article you posted at the top of the page. ;)

I'll take your word for it, but I didn't want to start a new thread on something that's already been discussed in this thread, even if it's not the specific Vornado Tower that the thread title references. The article mentions the proximity of the two sites, and led me to believe that an air rights exchange might take place.


Vornado has been talking about demoing that hotel for 5 years. It took them 10 to get the Alexanders site going so dont hold your breath

Are they an especially slow developer in general, or was there something unique about the Alexander's site that caused the delays? In my opinion, a developer like Vornado, whose portfolio is so heavily concentrated in the Penn Station area, would want to get moving on nearby developments as soon as possible, especially given the new commercial district planned in and around MSG.

[kliq6]

they own alot of stuff in penn station area and basically they could and would be th eones that could turn this area around and into a TS type area, but until they make a move on one of there proposed four projects, nothing of importance will happen

[ablarc]

i thought the hotel penn was going to be demolished?
Renovate it instead into a modern hotel. Could look great if fixed up. A magnificent and iconic pile.

[pianoman11686]

HERALD SQUARE DANCE

FRENZY OF COMMERCIAL DEALS IN RETAIL MECCA $689M SALE

Manhattan Mall. November 29, 2006 -- SEVERAL major changes are underway in Herald Square.

Two Herald Square, a building that houses retailers H&M and Victoria's Secret, is being marketed for a price expected to top $500 million.

Also known as the Marbridge Building and 1328 Broadway, the property sits on the northeast corner of W. 34th St. and has five varied uses, each with its own separate lobby.

Along with the 66,000 foot H&M and 25,900 foot lingerie purveyor, ad agency Publicis has over 111,000 feet. There's also a branch of Mercy College and a group of original shoe showroom tenants on the top floors. Plus, the 360,000 feet can be increased with 75,000 feet of air rights that could also be sold.

Aby Rosen and Michael Fuchs' of RFR Holdings are the sellers and have hired Richard Baxter of Cushman & Wakefield's capital markets team to lead the marketing effort. The other members of that team are Ron Cohen, Jon Caplan and Scott Latham.

RFR bought a half interest in the building in 2000 from a group that included Irving Schneider and had filled the building with shoe showrooms. The RFR group selling the 100 percent interest includes the Henry Goelet family. "We spent a good amount of time creating a very special asset with the quality and credit of the tenants," said Jason Brown, CEO of RFR Holdings.

Meanwhile, cater-corner to Two Herald Square at 1350 Broadway, W&H Properties is offering a three-level retail block of some 26,000 feet through Jeffrey Roseman of Newmark Knight Frank Retail.

Asking rent for the ground floor is about $425 a foot, while the second floor is being shopped at $125 a foot. The lower level is priced at $40. "If a retailer can steal 5 percent of Macy's $1 billion a year in business, that's $50 million," said Roseman. "It is very visible in the Thanksgiving Parade and will become someone's iconic flagship."

The triangular building, surrounded by Broadway, Sixth Ave. and 35th and 36th Streets, was the subject of many disagreements among its stakeholders, including Schneider, Leona Helmsley and Peter Malkin. Malkin ultimately took over management of the building under the W&H Properties banner.

Then yesterday, Vornado Realty Trust revealed that it is buying the Manhattan Mall from Argent Ventures for $689 million. That multi-use, 1 million foot building sits on the Sixth Avenue blockfront between 32nd and 33rd Streets.

Along with the 164,000 feet of retail, it has 812,000 feet of office space leased mostly to the Bank of America and The Interpublic Group.

The transaction, which will close in the first quarter of 2007, includes 250,000 feet of additional air rights. Vornado's leadership tornadoes, Steve Roth and Michael Fascitelli, have been eyeing those air rights to add to the adjacent redevelopment of its current 1.4 million foot Hotel Pennsylvania.

Sources tell us there is one office tenant already in the bag for the eventual new office tower that would rise opposite the current Madison Square Garden complex. Our best guesses for that play are the National Basketball Association, which long ago eyed a tower on Ninth Ave., and advertising agency Ogilvy & Mather, which is looking for 1 million feet of office space.

lois.weiss@nypost.com

Copyright 2006NYP Holdings, Inc.

[antinimby]

Renovate it instead into a modern hotel. Could look great if fixed up. A magnificent and iconic pile.

Not if it's sitting on 1.65 million sf of developable space.

That's a lot of dough.


The transaction, which will close in the first quarter of 2007, includes 250,000 feet of additional air rights. Vornado's leadership tornadoes, Steve Roth and Michael Fascitelli, have been eyeing those air rights to add to the adjacent redevelopment of its current 1.4 million foot Hotel Pennsylvania.

Nothing short of landmarking it, is gonna save it.

[kliq6]

This Hotel is a dump and putting a 2 million sf tower here can do much good for finally turning this area into a good business district andd away from fast food heaven

[stache]

I walked along 33rd. St. tonight and the building doesn't make much impact there. I would miss the 7th. Ave facade. Such is life...

[ramvid01]

I have mix reviews on the hotel. It's facade is very nice, but it's sheer size and girth kind of negate its positives. If the tower that goes up is nice looking (doubful) i wouldnt mind it.

[NYguy]

Vornado's not wasting time....
(Bloomberg news)

Vornado Plans Tower, 5 Trading Floors for Hotel Site

By David M. Levitt
Jan. 4 (Bloomberg)

Vornado Realty Trust plans to replace New York's Hotel Pennsylvania, where Glenn Miller and Duke Ellington once played, with a 2.5 million square-foot office tower with five trading floors designed to attract financial firms, according to a report by brokers Grubb & Ellis Co.

Vornado, the second-largest U.S. real estate investment trust, aims to complete the building in midtown Manhattan by 2011, according to the report, which Grubb plans to release by next week.

The planned 500,000 square feet of trading space could entice a major financial firm as the property's anchor tenant, said David Arena, president of Grubb's New York office. Goldman Sachs Group Inc. is building a new headquarters in lower Manhattan with 500,000 square feet of trading space, and its rivals are anxious to keep up, he said.

"The next most logical site in New York that can be brought to market the fastest is the Hotel Pennsylvania,'' said Arena. "There's definitely a market for the space right now.''

The 1,700-room hotel -- the city's fourth largest, according to visitors bureau NYC & Co. -- is across Seventh Ave. from Pennsylvania Station, the largest U.S. rail hub.

Vornado, based in Paramus, New Jersey, said in filings with securities regulators last year that it's considering building a skyscraper where the hotel now stands. The Grubb report provides the first detail on how big that building might be, and how much trading space is planned.

Wendi Kopsick, a Vornado spokeswoman, said the company had no comment.

In his annual letter to shareholders on May 1, Vornado Chairman Steven Roth described the hotel as ``a placeholder, sort of like a parking lot, but in this case with $22 million of earnings. It is one of the few obvious office sites that could support 2 million-plus square feet.''

The property could also support housing, or a mix of uses, Roth said in the letter.

Vornado shares rose 39 cents to $122.10 at 4:00 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. The shares rose 46 percent in 2006, compared with a 28 percent gain for the Bloomberg Real Estate Investment Trust Index.

Vornado executives briefed Grubb in October on its plan for the site. They didn't say how tall the building would be, said Richard Persichetti, senior Grubb research analyst. At 2.5 million square feet it would rival the 2.7 million square-foot Empire State Building in terms of floor space.

"There are zoning restrictions that have to do with sunlight and daylight,'' he said. ``So the massing and height still have to be determined,'' said Persichetti.

Another broker who's been briefed on the plan said he isn't sure a new building would house a financial company.

"They don't intend to build that building on a speculative basis,'' Neil Goldmacher, executive vice president of Newmark Knight Frank said of Vornado. ``The building can absolutely be customized depending on the type of user they attract.''

Silverstein Properties Inc. is planning to offer up to nine trading floors in two of the three towers it is building at the World Trade Center site in lower Manhattan.

Merrill Lynch & Co. has talked with executives of both companies about moving its headquarters to either site, as well as to sites in Jersey City, New Jersey, people with knowledge of the discussions said in November.

Largest Area Landlord

Vornado is the largest landlord in the Penn Station area, where it owns seven other properties. In November, it agreed to buy the Manhattan Mall, a 1-million square-foot retail and office building complex that abuts the back of Hotel Pennsylvania, for $689 million.

In a partnership with Related Cos., Vornado also holds development rights to the landmark Farley Post Office building just west of Penn Station on Eighth Ave. The Farley Post Office is planned to become Moynihan Station, a regional rail hub.

Vornado and Related have proposed tearing down the Madison Square Garden sports arena, which sits on top of Penn Station, opening the site up for a new mixed-use tower, and a new glass- domed Penn Station.

That tower could be 2.5 million to 3 million square feet, according to the Grubb report.

The 87-year-old hotel's phone number inspired the 1938 Glenn Miller hit ``Pennsylvania 6-5000.'' It was built by the Pennsylvania Railroad and designed by the firm McKim Mead & White in the same Beaux Arts style as the Farley Building and as the original Penn Station, whose demolition in the early 1960s galvanized New York's preservation movement.

Citing the hotel's big-band era heritage, Arena said, ``it's probably still a great place for a dance, but it makes an even better trading floor.''

The hotel, in spite of its pedigree, has never been considered a standout piece of architecture, said Peg Breen, president of the New York Landmarks Conservancy, which monitors the city's landmarks designation process. She said she had no record of it ever being proposed for landmarking.

"It's a shame to lose any McKim Mead & White, because even their second-best is better than most,'' she said. ``It's probably slightly more of a cultural loss than an architectural loss.''

[NYguy]

Vornado Realty Trust plans to replace New York's Hotel Pennsylvania, where Glenn Miller and Duke Ellington once played, with a 2.5 million square-foot office tower with five trading floors designed to attract financial firms, according to a report by brokers Grubb & Ellis Co.

Vornado, the second-largest U.S. real estate investment trust, aims to complete the building in midtown Manhattan by 2011, according to the report, which Grubb plans to release by next week. Vornado executives briefed Grubb in October on its plan for the site. They didn't say how tall the building would be, said Richard Persichetti, senior Grubb research analyst. At 2.5 million square feet it would rival the 2.7 million square-foot Empire State Building in terms of floor space.

"There are zoning restrictions that have to do with sunlight and daylight,'' he said. "So the massing and height still have to be determined,'' said Persichetti.

This is all very interesting news. The rendering of the tower posted earlier is for a tower of only 1.3 msf of space. The new plan (at 2.5msf) it double the size of that! And with a completion date of 2011, it seems they want to rival Silvertein's towers 2 and 3 at the WTC site. All would be about the same size and include trading floors:

Tower 2
2.5 msf
78-stories
1,254 ft + 85 ft


Tower 3
2.5 msf
71-stories
1,155 ft + 100 ft

Very interesting indeed!

[londonlawyer]

It's a shame to lose the Hotel Penn. The hotel is a flea bag, but it's a very nice building from the exterior.

Hopefully, the loss will be compensated by the construction of a magnificent 1,000 foot plus tower.

[stache]

Hopefully they will add another subway entrance at 33rd. St. The pedestrian traffic there is pretty full already.

[sfenn1117]

This hotel, on the outside at least would be the crown jewel of many smaller American cities, but this is New York, and this is not a big loss considering the replacement. This tower is going to be huge....I would certainly expect close to 1,000 feet, if not higher.

An opening in 2011 is next to impossible if demolition does not start this year. Any word on a closing date for the hotel?

[pianoman11686]

The Hotel Penn is disgusting on the inside. Worthy of the wrecking ball, especially considering what's at stake.

Bring this baby up to 1200/1300, and it'll be a twin to ESB. I'm thinking a well-massed post-Modern tower, with some creative setbacks, could be awesome.

[NYguy]

An opening in 2011 is next to impossible if demolition does not start this year. Any word on a closing date for the hotel?


That would mean getting the hotel closed in months, and starting demolition work immediately. But not impossible if they are really serious about getting it built quickly. It seems more of a target date set to compete with the WTC towers and get a jump on whatever Brookfield plans to build on its 8th Ave site. Also, it seems that whatever retail was planned there will move over to the MSG site.

[lofter1]

If they want to have a new building ready by 2011 then they'd best get moving ...

I'd think it would take a year to bring down the Penn Hotel.

NY Times Tower and B of A have each taken 3+ years, with much simpler demolition involved ...

NY Times site Demo started on 1.22.2004 (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=22060&postcount=226); Foundation work continued through 4.03.2005 (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46298&postcount=393); Steel started to rise above street level around 5.14.2005 (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=49842&postcount=442)

B of A site Demo started in May 2004 (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27233&postcount=532); Foundation work was going full tilt by March 2005 (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=44983&postcount=799) and continued through Summer 2005 (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=62442&postcount=929) with cranes going in at the end of August 2005 (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=63100&postcount=955); Steel started to rise above street level there at the beginning of October 2005 (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=67644&postcount=987)

[ManhattanKnight]

^And the Times and B of A sites didn't have a pair of 100-year-old railroad tunnels (Amtrak and LIRR) not far below the surface to contend with.

[sfenn1117]

Bring this baby up to 1200/1300, and it'll be a twin to ESB. I'm thinking a well-massed post-Modern tower, with some creative setbacks, could be awesome.

I would like some creative setbacks. Throw away the t-square for once. This potential supertall combined with one or two replacing MSG and this forms an incredible cluster, rivaled only by the WTC.

[Derek2k3]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/146/346004207_62b2e96e47_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/140/346004209_a61ba71a78_o.jpg


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/143/346004966_9a16bce83d_o.jpg
This version was 2.3 msf., 64 stories.

[NYguy]

^And the Times and B of A sites didn't have a pair of 100-year-old railroad tunnels (Amtrak and LIRR) not far below the surface to contend with.


But that doesn't necessarily mean it would take as long on the Penn Hotel site. I guess we have become so accustomed to seeing things take forever in NY that we come to expect it. Given an extra year for demolition, it would still open at around the time the WTC towers would (2012), which seems to be the point.

[NYguy]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/143/346004966_9a16bce83d_o.jpg
This version was 2.3 msf..

I like how that version fronts on 7th, as opposed to the version that was midblock. Now add 5 trading floors, a better design, and you get a new tower!

[antinimby]

The tan-colored base of the hotel is very classy and should be saved and incorporated into whatever boring glass tower they want to build there.

I doubt the base of a new glass tower will ever be nearly as elegant as this one.

Hearst and Foster showed us how well this can work out, why not here?

http://www.hotelpenn.com/images/splash/splash_02.gif

[stache]

IMO the only thing nice about this building are the giant ionic columns. I keep getting it confused with the building directly south of it, which is much more elegant.

[NYatKNIGHT]

It's refreshing to hear a height go up, for once.

I wouldn't mind a WTC rival - seems that 34th St. corridor has the potential to be a street of giants.

[NYguy]

It's refreshing to hear a height go up, for once.

I wouldn't mind a WTC rival - seems that 34th St. corridor has the potential to be a street of giants.


I was thinking the same thing, but only on 33rd Street (extending to the MSG and Brookfield sites). It would almost be like a standoff between Downtown's tallest (the WTC) and Midtown's because there's not many tall buildings between the groups.

[NYguy]

Daily News

Office tower dooms Hotel Pennsylvania
Hosted Glenn Miller, Duke Ellington

BY PAUL D. COLFORD

The Hotel Pennsylvania - a New York fixture whose phone number was immortalized in Glenn Miller's Big Band hit "Pennsylvania 6-5000" - will be torn down to build an office tower, according to a real estate report.

Vornado Realty Trust, a real estate giant with big plans in the Madison Square Garden area, intends to replace the 1,700-room hotel opposite Penn Station with a 2.5-million-square-foot building by 2011, the report says.

"The five base floors will be 100,000-square-foot trading floors, and the building will be marketed towards a financial services industry tenant," according to the 2007 market forecast from real estate firm Grubb & Ellis.

A Vornado spokesman said last night the firm had no comment.

The hotel, whose Seventh Ave. entrance is dominated by large columns, was developed by the Pennsylvania Railroad and designed by the renowned architectural firm McKim, Mead & White, which also gave New York its majestic main post office on Eighth Ave., as well as the former Penn Station.

The Statler Hotel Pennsylvania, as general manager Ellsworth Statler's grande dame was originally known, opened in 1919 with 2,200 rooms. It was said to be the largest hotel in the world until the late 1920s.

"New York Panorama," a guidebook produced in the 1930s by the Federal Writers' Project of New York City, described the 22-story Pennsylvania, the Commodore and the Roosevelt as "characteristic of the country-wide type of modern hotel."

Its Cafe Rouge ballroom was a popular venue during the Big Band era of the 1930s and '40s. Besides Glenn Miller's orchestra, bandleaders Duke Ellington, Artie Shaw and the Dorsey brothers thrilled crowds from its stage. Benny Goodman's band was a favorite in the hotel's Manhattan Room.

But with big Midtown office layouts now scarce, the tower envisioned for the site could fetch rents of around $100 per square foot - near the top for Manhattan - and "an accomplishment which would change the face of the Midtown South market," Grubb & Ellis predicted.

Vornado, which announced plans to buy the Manhattan Mall in Herald Square last November, is also part of the development team picked by the state to turn the main post office into an extension of Penn Station.

Though the Farley conversion is now stalled, Vornado and its partner, the Related Cos., are also pushing a much larger project. It would tack a new Madison Square Garden on the Ninth Ave. end of the post office complex and replace the existing arena with office towers and a new Penn Station.

Until the hotel hits its undisclosed closing date, guests can still call Pennsylvania 6-5000 - the hotel's main phone number - and hear a few bars of its signature tune.

[kliq6]

with the demolision and coordination of the underneath rail tracks and subways, they wont get this done by 2011, that I can gurantee. There selection of CM's thru the years ( plaza, HRH) also makes me know theywont finish by 2011

[londonlawyer]

Is it Merrill Lynch who is scouting for new offices? When do its leases expire? Wasn't it around 2011? I wonder if Vornado has agreed to terms with them.


Anyway, a site this large should accomodate an iconic tower. Anything less would be a real shame since: (1) sites this large are rare; and (2) the Hotel Penn is a very nice building whose drab interior could be remodeled.

P.S.: I thought that between the Hotel Penn and the air rights from the Manhattan Mall (or whatever Vornado built) that this site had about 1.8 m s.f. of buildable space. Does anyone know where the other 700,000 comes from?

P.P.S.: It would be nice if someone could assemble a site that includes all of the shabby little stores just north of the Hotel Penn between 33rd and 34th on 7th and the same holds true for all of the crap on the northeast corner of 34th and 8th. They are two blighted sites.

[stache]

Wouldn't it be possible for Vornado to tear down the entire block and replace it with a giant building?

[BrooklynRider]

with the demolision and coordination of the underneath rail tracks and subways, they wont get this done by 2011, that I can gurantee. There selection of CM's thru the years ( plaza, HRH) also makes me know theywont finish by 2011

Plaza or HRH for a COMMERCIAL building of this size? What are they thinking? Vornado had primarily used Bovis and Pavarini for core and shell construction.

On another vein... Before we het too excited about this remember what happened to the 32-story tower to be built by Vornado at the SE corner of 34th & 7th Ave. It stands and a 2-story retail taxpayer. Vornado is a big player, but also one of the most conservative and pragmtic real estate developers in the city. Look how long it took to get the Alexander's site developed into Bloomberg Tower. They don't build spec buildings, so I'm betting nothing moves until a tenant is secured.

[londonlawyer]

NY Guy posted this rendering on another site:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v109/nyctowers/penta.jpg

Does anyone know if this is it? (I hope not.) It would be lame to lose the Hotel Penn in return for a 750 foot box.

[BrooklynRider]

That base sucks and I don't like the midblock tower. It will line up almost directly with 135 West 31st (Friar Tower). I'd prefer a design that reversed it more in the NY Times mode.

Also, Vornado is turning the area into a billboard jungle (and not even very interesting billboards at that.) Another step toward the Tokyoization of NY. One big Times Square. No dilineation anymore between neighborhoods and districts.

[kliq6]

Plaza or HRH for a COMMERCIAL building of this size? What are they thinking? Vornado had primarily used Bovis and Pavarini for core and shell construction.

On another vein... Before we het too excited about this remember what happened to the 32-story tower to be built by Vornado at the SE corner of 34th & 7th Ave. It stands and a 2-story retail taxpayer. Vornado is a big player, but also one of the most conservative and pragmtic real estate developers in the city. Look how long it took to get the Alexander's site developed into Bloomberg Tower. They don't build spec buildings, so I'm betting nothing moves until a tenant is secured.

Right on the money brooklyn with there conservative ways. They have used Bovis yes for bloomberg and I can only hope they go that way for this one!!

[pianoman11686]

To clear a few things up:

That rendering londonlawyer posted is also available on the first page of this thread. It was a plan for a residential building, and designed a couple years ago. It also seems to not be located on the actual Hotel Penn site, and is instead a block north on the southeast corner of 7th & 34th.

As per the air rights: the article in this post (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=133151&postcount=45) mentions that 250,000 square feet were added to the Hotel Penn site when Vornado purchased the Manhattan Mall a short while back. I assume any additional air rights that comprise the full 2.5 million square feet come from a variety of properties nearby, almost all of which Vornado seems to have bought by now.

Finally: Merrill Lynch's lease at the WFC is up by 2011. There are a bunch of articles in the World Trade Center threads (Freedom Tower, etc.) that discuss the possibility of them singlehandedly filling up one of the new towers (Tower 3 seems most likely). As for the Vornado office tower, the article I posted a link to speculates that the NBA would be the anchor tenant there. Not sure how credible that sounds now that 5 trading floors have been added to the plan.

[londonlawyer]

To clear a few things up....

That rendering londonlawyer posted is also available on the first page of this thread. It was a plan for a residential building, and designed a couple years ago. It also seems to not be located on the actual Hotel Penn site, and is instead a block north on the southeast corner of 7th & 34th....


Finally: Merrill Lynch's lease at the WFC is up by 2011. There are a bunch of articles in the World Trade Center threads (Freedom Tower, etc.) that discuss the possibility of them singlehandedly filling up one of the new towers (Tower 3 seems most likely). As for the Vornado office tower, the article I posted a link to speculates that the NBA would be the anchor tenant there. Not sure how credible that sounds now that 5 trading floors have been added to the plan.

But the model next to the rendering (which seems to be the same building) is on the Hotel Penn site.

PS: While the NBA might take 200,000 s.f. or so (I can't imagine that they even need that much), this building must have a large tenant lined up or else I doubt that Vornado would proceed. Also, Vornado must be eyeing a bank or else they would not be building huge trading floors.

Although there was talk about Merrill staying downtown, this site was also mentioned, and I have a strong feeling that Vornado is coming to terms with them (evidenced by the 2011 date, among other things).

[NYatKNIGHT]

Vengineer, you tease. Spill it!

[kliq6]

They ( Vornado) would not move ahead with a 2.5-3 million sf tower with a lease to the NBA for 200,000 sf. They along with Tower 2 are the finalist in NYC for Merrill's new HQ.

AS for that rendering, that is from 34th and 7th, another Vornado owned site that instead of a office tower they built a 2-story retail shop

[ramvid01]

They ( Vornado) would not move ahead with a 2.5-3 million sf tower with a lease to the NBA for 200,000 sf. They along with Tower 2 are the finalist in NYC for Merrill's new HQ.

AS for that rendering, that is from 34th and 7th, another Vornado owned site that instead of a office tower they built a 2-story retail shop

Dumbest idea ever in my opinion. They really should have built something a lot taller. Kind of reminds me of the Toys R Us building in TS. That should have been taller too.

[BrooklynRider]

The two story-building has the foundations and support to move forward with the rest of the design at anytime. It was truncated immediately after 9/11. At that time, it made sense. Again, another example of Steve Roth's conservative and pragmatic business sense.

[NYguy]

with the demolision and coordination of the underneath rail tracks and subways, they wont get this done by 2011, that I can gurantee. There selection of CM's thru the years ( plaza, HRH) also makes me know theywont finish by 2011

Perhaps, perhaps not. I think it's more of a point to just be competitive with the target dates of the WTC towers. Just so long as they get it built.

[NYguy]

NY Guy posted this rendering on another site:

Does anyone know if this is it? (I hope not.) It would be lame to lose the Hotel Penn in return for a 750 foot box.

I didn't post it. That's the same rendering first posted here, and older version at 1.3 msf. But it is in fact the hotel site.

[NYguy]

Finally: Merrill Lynch's lease at the WFC is up by 2011. There are a bunch of articles in the World Trade Center threads (Freedom Tower, etc.) that discuss the possibility of them singlehandedly filling up one of the new towers (Tower 3 seems most likely). As for the Vornado office tower, the article I posted a link to speculates that the NBA would be the anchor tenant there. Not sure how credible that sounds now that 5 trading floors have been added to the plan.

The NBA could also be looking at the Brookfield site on 9th Avenue again. That way, when the new MSG gets built, they can rush down and hand out fines to the Knicks immediately.

[Vengineer]

Vengineer, you tease. Spill it!

No no, nothing to spill. It wasn't even relevant to this thread. It was just a very minor correction which wouldn't have meant anything.

If I may add my input on this prospect... this really does look exciting. 2.5 million sqft is a tremendous amount of space even considering the size of the lot. My guess is that it'll be a tower-on-podium style tower like BoA and Tower 2 which means it won't utilize the full lot for its girth... which in turn means height height and more height. Vengineer predicts this tower will break 1250ft to roof... called on 3PM Friday, Jan 5, 2007. (Not based on any insider information, purely on speculative intuition.)

[lofter1]

Kind of reminds me of the Toys R Us building in TS. That should have been taller too.

Toys-R-Us in TS was a build-out of an existing (http://www.cla5h.com/bond/bond-yesterday.html) building, the great old Bond Building (http://www.lileks.com/NYC/timessquare/35.html) ...

http://www.cla5h.com/bond/times_sqare_bonds.jpg

http://www.cla5h.com/bond/a1-05.jpg

http://www.cla5h.com/bond/5423bond.jpg

http://www.lileks.com/NYC/timessquare/tscrowd.jpg

http://www.lileks.com/NYC/timessquare/tscrowd.jpg

[ramvid01]

Oh. That would explain why i never saw a hole for a foundation on that block. :o

[BrooklynRider]

I'm dating myself, but I saw The Clash play there back in 1982(?).

[Ed007Toronto]

When they did something like 14 shows in a week?

[Dynamicdezzy]

I was thinking the same thing, but only on 33rd Street (extending to the MSG and Brookfield sites). It would almost be like a standoff between Downtown's tallest (the WTC) and Midtown's because there's not many tall buildings between the groups.


This is really exciting for the area. Between The Javits, the yards development, the Moynihan/MSG/large towers project and this...Boy, I can't wait to see the end result. Well, at least the immediate one.

[NYguy]

Vengineer predicts this tower will break 1250ft to roof... called on 3PM Friday, Jan 5, 2007. (Not based on any insider information, purely on speculative intuition.)

Wow, that's pushing it past my conservative estimate of 900-1,200 ft. Very exciting prospects we have...

[NYguy]

Toys-R-Us in TS was a build-out of an existing (http://www.cla5h.com/bond/bond-yesterday.html) building, the great old Bond Building (http://www.lileks.com/NYC/timessquare/35.html) ...



I remember reading something from the owners at the time that retail was more profitable for that site, along with advertising.

[londonlawyer]

... this really does look exciting. 2.5 million sqft is a tremendous amount of space...

Does anyone know how many sf the B of A and NY Times towers have?

[NYguy]

Does anyone know how many sf the B of A and NY Times towers have?

The Times tower is not as much, but both the BofA and Goldman towers are extremely "fat" towers. The BofA is 2.1 msf. Goldman is about 2msf. Both developments got liberty bonds.

[londonlawyer]

The Times tower is not as much, but both the BofA and Goldman towers are extremely "fat" towers. The BofA is 2.1 msf. Goldman is about 2msf. Both developments got liberty bonds.

Thanks. In reality then, a 2.5 m sf tower with huge trading floors could easily be a fat, 750 foot tall tower.

[Derek2k3]

An average of 35,000 sq. ft. plates for the 2msf tower portion would yield 57 stories plus the 5 very high trading floors. 62 stories would be 900' at the least.

[londonlawyer]

I hope so.

[Citytect]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v109/nyctowers/penta.jpg

Isn't this rendering really messed up? The street on the left side of the image is 33rd looking east - you can see the Empire State building on the north side of the street. That would put the rendered building on the Hotel Penn site, no? SE corner of 33rd and 7th Avenue. But isn't that the hotel on the right side of the picture? Am I missing something? The rendered tower seems to be on a property that doesn't exist.

[ramvid01]

Well from what i can tell in that rendering, the tower itself rises mid block, which completely escapes me why it would do that.

[londonlawyer]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v109/nyctowers/penta.jpg

Isn't this rendering really messed up? The street on the left side of the image is 33rd looking east - you can see the Empire State building on the north side of the street. That would put the rendered building on the Hotel Penn site, no? SE corner of 33rd and 7th Avenue. But isn't that the hotel on the right side of the picture? Am I missing something? The rendered tower seems to be on a property that doesn't exist.


I think that that is 33rd and 7th. I really hope that this is not the new building. To destroy a McKim, Mead & White structure for this would be quite sad. As I've said, NY has learned nothing from the loss of Penn Station. The irony is that a McKim structure will be razed across the street of NY's greatest architectural murder, Penn Station!

It would be some consolation if the site is replaced with a 1,000 plus foot icon, but if it's replaced with the structure that's pictured, it will be quite sad. This is particularly true since there is a lot of crap in this area, including the vast assemblage of junk on 34th and 7th next to the Hotel Penn.

[NoyokA]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v109/nyctowers/penta.jpg

Isn't this rendering really messed up? The street on the left side of the image is 33rd looking east - you can see the Empire State building on the north side of the street. That would put the rendered building on the Hotel Penn site, no? SE corner of 33rd and 7th Avenue. But isn't that the hotel on the right side of the picture? Am I missing something? The rendered tower seems to be on a property that doesn't exist.

The model is right for the Hotel Penn Site. You can see the Manhattan Mall in the background and 2 Penn in the foreground. I don't think you're looking at the Hotel Pennsylvania in the background of the rendering. The Hotel Pennsylvania sets back mid-block. It just goes to show though how forgettable the design of the Hotel Pennsylvania is, as there are literally hundreds of buildings around its size and height in the garment district. This will not be a big loss, only because there are so many of these otherwise faceless buildings, walk down Seventh Avenue from 42nd street and these buildings own the streetscape. As individual pieces perhaps they would be appreciated but as they are, there is only room for something bigger and better.

[Derek2k3]

The building next to the Hotel Penn is similar and even more attractive. I wish there was a way to move all the demolished buildings in Manhattan to Brooklyn. Brooklyn would have one hell of a skyline/streetscape.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/136/347476501_b96defb32c_o.jpg


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/146/346004207_62b2e96e47_o.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/140/346004209_a61ba71a78_o.jpg

[NoyokA]

I guess there is such a thing as too of a good thing, we can't even appreciate these gems. I have a feeling that once some new buildings go up that we'll start to notice and appreciate the old one's that are left.

[NYguy]

I guess there is such a thing as too of a good thing, we can't even appreciate these gems. I have a feeling that once some new buildings go up that we'll start to notice and appreciate the old one's that are left.

There's nothing special about this one, other than it has a little history. It's actually very ordinary looking if you remove the columns. It's not worth saving for the columns alone.

[NYguy]

This tower will stand like a sentry on 33rd with the Empire State...


http://www.hotelpenn.com/images/splash/splash_01.gif
http://www.hotelpenn.com/images/splash/splash_02.gif


Whatever the size of the tower, it will have great views...
http://www.hotelpenn.com/ipix/rooftop3_ipix2.htm

[Bob]

The columns COULD be saved, and incorporated into the design of the new building at their exact existing locations. Now that would be pretty cool. A mix of the old and the new worked at Hearst...why not here?

[TallGuy]

Back in '85 this former high school geek/Star Trek fanatic saw Leonard Nimoy speak to a Star Trek convention there, where he announced he was directing Star Trek IV. It was in the middle of a hotel worker's strike, and all the maids, bellhops etc were on strike. The hotel room I stayed in was a mess, with extension power cords running across the room clearly out of code. My older brother and I had a blast taking pictures of it and the other questionable things we discovered in our room!

[NYguy]

The columns COULD be saved, and incorporated into the design of the new building at their exact existing locations. Now that would be pretty cool. A mix of the old and the new worked at Hearst...why not here?

They probably could be, but hardly worth the effort to incorporate into any design.

[Citytect]

The model is right for the Hotel Penn Site. You can see the Manhattan Mall in the background and 2 Penn in the foreground. I don't think you're looking at the Hotel Pennsylvania in the background of the rendering. The Hotel Pennsylvania sets back mid-block.

Thanks for the clarification. I couldn't figure it out. For a minute I thought someone uncurled a new dimension. Now I see that the building to south of Hotel Penn is strikingly similar and that both the rendering and model are correct.

What's in the other building? Is it also a McKim, Mead & White building? I just hope they don't tear both down anytime soon.

If something replaces the hotel, it will be bigger and taller, but I doubt it will be any better. I hope I'm wrong though.

[pianoman11686]

Okay, so the rendering was correct. My bad.

Now can we move on and stop talking about it? It was planned to be residential. The new one will be commercial. There's no reason to suspect they're going to reuse the old plan, especially if they need to fit 5 massive trading floors in the base.

[Citytect]

No. I think we should talk about it some more, Mr. Testy. :)

[ablarc]

^ Or Soldiers Field?

[pianoman11686]

The comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular, Citytect. Or should I call you, Mr. Center of Attention? ;)

[Citytect]

^Didn't think it was directed at anyone in particular.


Or Soldiers Field?

You think it looks like Soldiers Field? I guess it does have that sort of alien architecture look to it.

[kliq6]

The lack of upkeep and caring of this building has made it a mess, its time to take it down along with the Milford Plaza and the Hotel New Yorker!!

[Eugenious]

The lack of upkeep and caring of this building has made it a mess, its time to take it down along with the Milford Plaza and the Hotel New Yorker!!

The New Yorker is a also an ugly building save the nostalgia. I walk past it often and it is not very well maintained.

[lofter1]

Hotel New Yorker is one of the great buildings in NYC ...

[ablarc]

^ Period piece. An imposing pile. Needs TLC.

[lofter1]

Hotel New Yorker is getting that TLC now, including work on the exterior: LINK (http://www.newyorkology.com/archives/2005/11/new_yorker_to_r.html/)


Earlier renovations destroyed much of the original Art Deco details, but some are still intact, including the brass elevator doors and marble floors, which are now covered by carpeting.

The current undertaking will upgrade the lobby and meeting spaces, add a "sophisticated New York restaurant," replace the central heating and cooling system, create gallery space in the lobby for 500 pieces of hotel memorabilia and add more rooms, bringing the total to 920.

[londonlawyer]

Hotel New Yorker is one of the great buildings in NYC ...

I agree. It has a potentially nice lobby too. I also like the Milford Plaza (from the outside at least.)

[Eugenious]

Hotel New Yorker is getting that TLC now, including work on the exterior: LINK (http://www.newyorkology.com/archives/2005/11/new_yorker_to_r.html/)

MUCH needed let me tell you.

[kliq6]

I agree. It has a potentially nice lobby too. I also like the Milford Plaza (from the outside at least.)

This is a prime site to redevelop. The New Yorker i can live with keeping but there is nothing worth saving at the Milford, including that (head) they found on the 18th floor years back!!!

[lofter1]

If you want to knock some buildings down at 8th / 34th let's go for (1) the pinkish POS on the SE corner, (2) the DR on the SE corner and (3) TGIF & Gang on the NE corner before we even start talking about the Hotel New Yorker.

Milford Plaza is a very successful operation. Don't think you'll see it coming down anytime soon.

[NYguy]

Yet another reason why space-starved Manhattan needs this tower...

(Bloomberg)

New York Office Rents Reach Record Pace in 2006, Colliers Says

By David M. Levitt
Jan. 8 (Bloomberg)

Manhattan office rents rose in 2006 at a record pace as rising stock prices and expanding investment banks and law firms fueled demand, reports by commercial brokers Colliers ABR and Jones Lang LaSalle Inc. found.

For "Class A'' space, the most modern, best-appointed offices in the city, rents jumped 34.8 percent to $68.29 a square foot, according to Colliers ABR research. The average asking rent for this kind of space rose 13.1 percent in the fourth quarter, Colliers said. The previous record gain was in 2000, when Class A rents jumped 24.6 percent, Colliers said.

"Even during the dot-com boom things weren't as crazy as they are today,'' said Robert Sammons, New York-based Colliers's research director. "There's a lack of space, and a continuing number of tenants in the market who are looking for more space. Firms want to expand, and others want to be here.''

Commercial rents rose 23 percent to an average of $52.22 a square foot overall, including so-called "B'' space in older buildings, according to Jones Lang LaSalle. In Midtown Manhattan, the biggest and most expensive office market in the U.S., rents rose 24 percent to $61.31. Both figures are historic highs.

Competition intensified last year as law firms, hedge funds and money management firms sought high-profile office space. Law firm Akin, Gump, Strauss, Hauer & Feld LLP, agreed to pay more than $100 a square foot for its new offices in the Bank of America building near Times Square, said Frank Doyle, Jones Lang managing director for Midtown,

Even if economic growth slows in the coming year, Doyle said competition for space will remain heated.


`No End in Sight'

"Everybody I talk to says they don't see an end in sight,'' Doyle said.

"Instead, there's a fear of what the numbers are going to be in 2008 or 2009. It's a function of an economic expansion and a function of no new supply.''

In Manhattan, an island with 360 million square feet of office buildings, there is only 3.7 million square feet of new office space due to be completed between now and 2009, and 86 percent of that space is already leased, reported Grubb & Ellis Co., another property brokerage. That's in two buildings, the 1.6 million square-foot New York Times tower on Eighth Avenue, due for completion this year, and the 2.1 million square-foot Bank of America tower near Times Square.

Relief could come early in the next decade when four towers with a total of 8.8 million square feet are scheduled to be completed at the World Trade Center site in Lower Manhattan, including the 2.6 million square-foot Freedom Tower, to be the second-tallest building in the world.


More Towers

Also, SJP Properties, a New Jersey development firm owned by Steven J. Pozycki, is scheduled to break ground this year on a 1.1 million square-foot skyscraper a block north of the Times tower.

Plans for more towers are expected to be announced this year, Sammons said. The city and state are at work on a plan to extend subway and commuter rail access to Midtown between Eighth Avenue and the Hudson River, opening up a possible 24 million square feet of potential office sites, according to the New York City Economic Development Corp.

As rising rents made Manhattan skyscrapers more valuable, their sale prices also rose, to a record average of $638 a square foot, reported Real Capital Analytics, a New York-based data service that follows commercial sales. That's a 60 percent jump from 2005, the firm reported, led by six sales for more than $1,000 a square-foot, a barrier not breached until last year.

Real Capital tracked 139 office building sales in New York, six more than in 2005, with an aggregate purchase price of $18.98 billion, almost double last year's $10.35 billion.


Trophy Properties

The top sale, both in dollars and on a per-square-foot basis, was 666 Fifth Avenue, which Tishman Speyer Properties LP agreed last month to sell to the Kushner Cos. of Florham Park, New Jersey, for $1.8 billion, or $1,200 a square foot. A month earlier, Boston Properties Inc. agreed to sell 5 Times Square, headquarters of Ernst & Young LLP, to AVR Realty Co. LLC, a Yonkers, New York-based real estate company, for $1.28 billion, or $1,165 a square foot.

"It's been amazing,'' said Dan Fasulo, Real Capital director of market analysis. ``The average was certainly pulled up by the number of trophy properties that sold this year.''

[antinimby]

...including that (head) they found on the 18th floor years back!!!Never heard of that before. :eek:

Tell me more.

Who, what, where and when?

[lofter1]

Never heard that story ^^^ about the Milford Plaza ...

But there was the one about the poor guy and the Scientologists (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Fishman/time-behar.html) :eek:

[NYguy]

More on Penn's fate...
http://www.nationaltrust.org/magazine/archives/arc_news_2007/010807.htm


Manhattan Hotel To Fall

http://www.nationaltrust.org/magazine/_images/news/hotelpa.jpg

The Hotel Pennsylvania, one of McKim, Mead & White's later designs, has been altered since it opened in 1919. (Vintage postcard)

Story by Margaret Foster
Jan. 8, 2007

The New York City hotel that inspired the song "Pennsylvania 6-5000" will be torn down for a 2.5 million-square-foot office tower.

One of McKim, Mead & White's later designs, the 22-story Hotel Pennsylvania was one of the largest hotels in the world when it opened in 1919 with 2,200 rooms. It was built across the street from the firm's Pennsylvania Station, which was torn down in 1963 for Madison Square Garden. The Hotel Pennsylvania's ballroom was a big band hotspot for Duke Ellington, Count Basie, and Glenn Miller, who made it famous in his 1940 jingle.

Owner Vornado Realty Trust, based in Paramus, N.J., intends to build an office tower with a trading floor in place of the 1,700-room hotel, which is not a city landmark.

"It holds a lot of cultural resonance with the city because of all the big bands that played there, but the inside has been pretty much stripped," says Peg Breen, president of the New York Landmarks Conservancy. "I don't think anyone who has stayed there recently has been overly in love with the place … Whatever tears are going to be shed, they're too late."

Vornado plans to complete its new tower in four years, so the hotel is still open for business.

Breen says the Hotel Pennsylvania's fate is a good reminder that in Manhattan's hot real-estate market, almost any site can be redeveloped. "Places that you wouldn't think of as a potential teardown are becoming just that."

[RandySavage]

I wish that Vornado would gut the interior (for condos perhaps) and leave the exterior intact. I think this is a landmark-worthy building.

[kurokevin]

Agreed. With the city desperate to expand Westward beyond Penn Station, you think it would be in their best interest to preserve this building, pushing the Vornado further west towards one of the many vacant lots West of 9th Ave.

This is very ridiculous in my opinion. Our city does not need to be all glass towers! Let's leave that for Vancouver please.

[londonlawyer]

...
This is very ridiculous in my opinion. Our city does not need to be all glass towers! Let's leave that for Vancouver please.

I concur. This is a very nice building that simply needs to be spruced up inside.

[ManhattanKnight]

I also concur and have a solution that should make everyone happy. As I understand it, Vornado owns both the hotel and the adjacent Manhattan Mall building (ex-Gimbels) and wants to transfer unused air right from the latter to the former to increase the allowable bulk of its new building. Why not reverse the process: raze the Mall, erect the new building there and renovate the hotel's interior (for hotel or residential use)? The Mall (right, below) and hotel (left) lots are almost equal in size. The hotel may be second-rate MM&W but it's still worth fighting for (and, damn it, that's where an important event in my life happened!).

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/8587/hotelpenntz6.jpg

[kliq6]

Never heard of that before. :eek:

Tell me more.

Who, what, where and when?

back in late 80's, a maid found a severed head of a man in his 30's. Also a few years ago a marine killed his GF and thru her out the window in that place to. As for it being successful, its true this place is packed with English tourists mainly

[LeCom]

"Interior has been stripped, so it's safe to demolish a landmark." I don't even know where to begin with this. Whatever happened to good old renovation and exterior facade preservation, like in so many other buildings? Why do nimbies take a bitch fit over every parcel of land yet are fine with demolishing such a beautiful piece of new York history? Tell me, how often these days do they build new McKim, Mead & White buildings? Why would Vornado rather spend all this time and resources taking down this behemoth rather than purchasing the shit pile across the street, tearing down those two-story sex shops and building a tower there instead? And, most importantly, has the city learned nothing from its notorious example across the street?

"The city learns from its past, we have become a much more culturally conscious society than fifty years ago, we treat historical relics with resoect and capitalize on smart development potential" - all that is rethoric bullshit used by development companies when it is convenient to preserve an old building. When it's not, they just pull excuses out of their ass to take the building down. and nimbies, those too-common New York hypocrites, only give a damn when some development is going to outshine their own residence across the street; they don't give a rat's ass about historic preservation, as they claim so often.

Man, this city's conscience is as messed up as years ago, and people in development are as greedy and self-centered as ever. No wonder that in the midst of this free-for-all they city is rapidly losing its pace as the chief producer of world's leading architecture.

[Alonzo-ny]

The building is mediocre get over it. You cannot justify saving it just because an architect with much greater buildings elsewhere designed this boring thing.

[LeCom]

The building is mediocre get over it. You cannot justify saving it just because an architect with much greater buildings elsewhere designed this boring thing.
How, in what sense, is it mediocre? Would you mind giving some specifics as to why it's so bad, on the exterior at least? Present some argument, maybe?

In my opinion, it is great not because it was designed by three dead starchitects, but because of its aesthetically pleasant massing proportions, colonnade ornaments, historical significance and one of the defining buildings in the neighborhood, amidst so many mistakes by past redevelopers right across the street.

[SilentPandaesq]

and, damn it, that's where an important event in my life happened!)

Ohhh.....Yea, I too felt sad when they dug up the place I lost my virginity. ;)

[NYguy]

Agreed. With the city desperate to expand Westward beyond Penn Station, you think it would be in their best interest to preserve this building, pushing the Vornado further west towards one of the many vacant lots West of 9th Ave.

This is very ridiculous in my opinion. Our city does not need to be all glass towers! Let's leave that for Vancouver please.

What's ridiculous is the fact that the city has to push development all the way over to the West Side, further away from Penn Station - the top transit terminal in the country. There's no reason a district like the one over and around Grand Central couldn't and shouldn't be developed around Penn Station. This would be a first step in that direction.

As far as the hotel, no one really cares about it, and if not for the impending demolition, it would immediately drift back into obscurity.


says Peg Breen, president of the New York Landmarks Conservancy. "I don't think anyone who has stayed there recently has been overly in love with the place … Whatever tears are going to be shed, they're too late."

No, there won't be many tears shed for this one.

[LeCom]

As far as the hotel, no one really cares about it, and if not for the impending demolition, it would immediately drift back into obscurity.
That could be said about nearly every building in the city. In fact, general public does not care about any building in the city, except maybe the ESB. However, does that mean that we should be free to demolish any building as long as there won't be an uproar from general public (which there probably won't). Many buildings in the city are architecturally significant, even if they are rundown, and the public might appreciate them but "doesn't care" about them. Besides, there is TREMENDOUS potential with condo conversions now, considering that even the building directly across the Stock Exchange is going condos now. Think about it; if office space on Wall Street, worldwide symbol of financial power and capitalism, is more profitable as condos than offices, that's saying something about current market demand.

[kurokevin]

[u]
As far as the hotel, no one really cares about it, and if not for the impending demolition, it would immediately drift back into obscurity.


I'm sure the same could be said for the Chang/Lam/Kauffman POSs that are plauging this area, but I'm sure the city, nor landmarks will be pushing for their demolition anytime soon.

[macreator]

Besides, there is TREMENDOUS potential with condo conversions now, considering that even the building directly across the Stock Exchange is going condos now. Think about it; if office space on Wall Street, worldwide symbol of financial power and capitalism, is more profitable as condos than offices, that's saying something about current market demand.

Well remember, those office buildings are older buildings that are effectively obsolete as office buildings. You don't see 60 Wall Street or other Class-A buildings going condo.

The beauty of the current market is that 20 years ago those obsolete beautiful older buildings would have been demolished and replaced with some ugly ill-proportioned flat-top new office building. Today, we're able to preserve these lovely buildings as residential condos (which I unfortunately cannot currently afford) for which the buildings are well-suited after an appropriate gutting (although hopefully not of any ornamental lobby designs).

[TREPYE]

Manhattan Hotel To Fall



The Hotel Pennsylvania, one of McKim, Mead & White's later designs, has been altered since it opened in 1919. (Vintage postcard)

Story by Margaret Foster
Jan. 8, 2007

The New York City hotel that inspired the song "Pennsylvania 6-5000" will be torn down for a 2.5 million-square-foot office tower.


Yo, thats HUGE. Are we talking supertall here or a disgusting 55 Water street-like bulk monstrosity??

[antinimby]

^ In this city, what do you think is likelier? :rolleyes:

They're gonna try to squeeze every inch of that 2.5 msf into as short of a tower as possible and that means the shape will be...drum roll...a box!

Like I said before, keep this hotel and go build that dull glass box on another site.

[ablarc]

The Hotel Pennsylvania, one of McKim, Mead & White's later designs ... will be torn down for a 2.5 million-square-foot office tower.

The 22-story Hotel Pennsylvania was one of the largest hotels in the world when it opened in 1919 with 2,200 rooms ...

Owner Vornado Realty Trust ... intends to build an office tower with a trading floor in place of the 1,700-room hotel, which is not a city landmark.
Too bad. Too bad it's coming down, too bad it wasn't landmarked as it should have been. That is one impressive pile --New York's most impressive hotel from the outside, imo. Run down, yes; so was Penn Station and so were countless gems that shine again through the miracle of renovation or restoration. This one was a keeper; I'll always miss it.


... the inside has been pretty much stripped," says Peg Breen, president of the New York Landmarks Conservancy. "I don't think anyone who has stayed there recently has been overly in love with the place … Whatever tears are going to be shed, they're too late." ... "Places that you wouldn't think of as a potential teardown are becoming just that."
Irrelevant. It's the outside of this one that impresses.

[LeCom]

Run down, yes; so was Penn Station and so were countless gems that shine again through the miracle of renovation or restoration.
My point exactly. Grand Central Terminal was pretty rundown not too long ago; did this condition warrant the structure's demolition?

[Alonzo-ny]

How, in what sense, is it mediocre? Would you mind giving some specifics as to why it's so bad, on the exterior at least? Present some argument, maybe?

In my opinion, it is great not because it was designed by three dead starchitects, but because of its aesthetically pleasant massing proportions, colonnade ornaments, historical significance and one of the defining buildings in the neighborhood, amidst so many mistakes by past redevelopers right across the street.

The main facade on 7th is uninteresting and the massing looks awkward with four blocks projecting out onto the cross street where they cant be fully appreciated. I like that style but it looks better with three elements like the building between 34th and 33rd on 6th ave which i think works much better.

[LeCom]

I just figured that it would make for an impressive skyscraper if it were originally built at least three times taller while maintaining the same footprint and design.

[antinimby]

Funny how some of you are saying that the Hotel Pennsylvania shouldn't be saved because its not that special or interesting and that this new tower will be a welcome addition.

Guess what?

I seem to remember that we also have another 2+ mllion square feet "office tower with large trading floors at the base" and it looks like this:

http://207.44.228.232/photopost/data//508/85886pa03.jpg

Yeah, real interesting indeed. :rolleyes:

I think I'll take an old Hotel Penn if you don't mind.

[NYguy]

Funny how some of you are saying that the Hotel Pennsylvania shouldn't be saved because its not that special or interesting and that this new tower will be a welcome addition.

Guess what?

I seem to remember that we also have another 2+ mllion square feet "office tower with large trading floors at the base" and it looks like this:

Yeah, real interesting indeed. :rolleyes:
I think I'll take an old Hotel Penn if you don't mind.

Yeah, that'll be built on 33rd Street.

The hotel we have, so we know what it looks like. As far as the Goldman Tower goes, I haven't seen any design. It could just as easily end up looking like the BofA or Freedom Towers. No one knows at this point, so that rendering is useless.

Either way, it will be a much needed office tower close to New York's busiest transit station. And long, long overdue. But it's not too late. All of you crying over the demise of this hotel still have time to get a room before it closes.

[NYguy]

NY Sun

Dynamism Erupts in Herald Sq.

http://www.nysun.com/images/columnists/90.jpg

By MICHAEL STOLER
January 11, 2007


Herald Square, the bustling mecca of New York City department stores, the home of Gimbels, Saks-34th Street, E.J. Korvettes, and the world's largest department store, Macy's, is undergoing a dynamic transformation.

Although the area has long been out of fashion — an overcrowded span of discount retail and fast food — real estate analysts say more than 20 office, retail, residential, and hotel development projects in the vicinity, combined with the prospect of a dazzling redevelopment of the current site of Madison Square Garden, will remake the neighborhood in the next decade.

"The office and retail markets in Herald Square and its environs are constantly tightening and improving as the major transportation hub nearby at Penn Station is expected to be expanded, improved, and eventually moved a block away," a principal and director at Eastern Consolidated, Alan Miller, said. "The mega-development that is slated to occur in the next decade in this Manhattan office submarket has changed the course."

One company that has a strong vested interest in the area's success is Vornado Realty Trust, the largest owner of commercial and retail space in Herald Square. The publicly traded real estate investment trust is the owner of seven office buildings, a variety of retail sites and billboard signage, and the 87-year old, 1,700-room Hotel Pennsylvania, across the street from Madison Square Garden at 401 Seventh Avenue.

Last week, it was reported that Vornado plans to construct a new 2.5 million square foot office tower on the site of the hotel, with large floor plates designed to accommodate trading floors.

A principal at Stellar Management, Robert Rosania, said, "Vornado runs the show in that submarket. Everything else is just deals."

Vornado will soon close on the purchase of its latest Herald Square acquisition, Manhattan Mall, the former home of Gimbel's Department store, which occupies an entire block on Sixth Avenue between 32nd and 33rd Streets. The building contains approximately 812,000 square feet of office space, 164,000 square feet of retail space, and 250,000 square feet of additional air rights, which can be used for the new development planned for the adjacent Hotel Pennsylvania site.

The chairman of the national real estate practice at Greenberg Traurig, Robert Ivanhoe, said, "With plans for the new Penn station and Madison Square Garden site, and then the further expansion of Midtown to the west, the plans for Pennsylvania Hotel make a lot of sense. But it would seem that the best strategy would be to wait until more has been established in this rapidly changing neighborhood to best maximize the opportunity and take advantage of the impending up scaling of the area."

"Vornado, with leaders like Steve Roth and Mike Fascitelli will develop the right plan and timing," he continued.

Industry leaders and prominent owners are optimistic about the resurgence of Herald Square and Penn Station.

The president of W & M Properties, Anthony Malkin, said his company would be redeveloping its holdings at 1359 Broadway, 501 Seventh Avenue, 1333 and 1350 Broadway, and 112 West 34th Street, upgrading space used by the garment industry into upscale office space.

"We are renovating and rebranding buildings including the Empire State Building with extensive retail, new and restored lobbies, elevators, windows and common areas. Rents are up, concessions are down; this is the transportation super hub, easy walk to Penn Station, Grand Central Station, Port Authority and all the north and south subway lines," Mr. Malkin said.

A principal at Himmel + Meringoff Properties, Leslie Himmel, said "Many years ago the legendary Harry Helmsley advised me to ‘purchase buildings near the transportation hubs of Penn Station and Grand Central as they will not be getting on roller skates and leaving the neighborhood.'"

"We have owned property in the Herald Square area since 1985, primarily because we knew that it was a matter of time until the Herald Square and Penn Station neighborhood became redeveloped," he said.

New construction of residential and commercial properties is in various stages of planning along Sixth Avenue, a stretch that has been dormant for years. Last year, Baruch Singer assembled and purchased a full block front on Sixth Avenue from West 30th to West 31st Streets for $117 million. According to trade sources, Mr. Singer's original plans were to construct a mixed-use building that contained 300,000 square feet of residential condominiums. The New York Sun has learned that Mr. Singer is under contract to sell the site to another developer who plans to construct a 500,000 square foot building, which will likely include office and hotel components.

On the west side on Sixth Avenue between West 29th to West 30th Streets, J.D. Carlisle is planning a 500,000 square foot, mixed-use development that will include a full block of two story retail, a very large garage component, a Fitzpatrick Hotel and a condominium tower.

A great deal of residential construction is taking place all over Manhattan, but there is a spike in the number of new projects surrounding Herald Square.

Last summer, a leading developer from Italy, BIDI Real Estate Company, purchased the vacant assemblage of sites at 400 Fifth Avenue from a joint venture of Lehman Brothers and Yitzhak Tessler. The developer intends to construct a 500,000 square foot mixed-use tower with ground floor retail, luxury residential condominiums and hotel services on the upper floors. Construction is scheduled to start early this summer.

Next month, a mixed-use, 58-story tower at 131 West 31 Street, known as "The Epic," will open its leasing office, and the first tenants are expected to move in before the summer. The tower is a development of a unique joint venture of The Durst Organization, Sidney Fetner Associates, and the Franciscan Friars. The project is divided into five condominium components. The major component, owned by the joint venture, is 458 rental units on floors 13 to 59. Twenty percent of the units will be "affordable."

"The Epic" will also house a 77,000 square foot condominium that contains New York's first Hope Lodge, which provide free overnight lodging for patients and families, and the regional headquarters of the American Cancer Society, which is relocating from its present location on West 56th Street. Hope will offer feature 50 patient rooms with private baths, shared family and meeting rooms, kitchen and laundry facilities, exercise rooms and other amenities. The third condominium is six floors owned by the Franciscan Friars, which will serve as mixeduse facility and include residences for the friars.

The 5,000 square foot component located on West 32nd Street will be owned by the joint venture, which expects that a restaurant will lease this space. The fifth condominium component is likely to be underground garage, leased to a local operator.

Last month, the first tenants moved into the 50-story, luxury condominium tower at 325 Fifth Avenue, across from the Empire State building. The developers, a joint venture of Douglaston Development and Continental Properties have sold all 250 luxury units. The tower was built on the former site of three six-story buildings and parking lot, and has made a dramatic impact on the neighborhood. A few blocks away at 309 Fifth Avenue, construction is scheduled to begin soon on a new luxury condominium development.

The president of Bellmarc Realty, Neil Binder, said "When I see the activity in Fifth Avenue around the Empire State Building, I am convinced that this entire area has fulfilled the qualifications of a basic investing premise that I have encouraged investors to look for over the last twenty years. This principle focuses on identifying two areas of prosperity and then seeking to invest in the area between the two."

"To the south, the Sixth Avenue, Chelsea corridor is now one of the most active development markets in town. To the north, the 42nd Street corridor is effectively complete with some of the priciest and most prestigious properties in the city. Herald Square and Fifth Avenue are the bridge that investors should be salivating to fill. I predict that this area will be the hottest area in the city for the next five years," Mr. Binder continued. The Herald Square and Penn Station neighborhood remains one of the most active retail destinations in New York City. Retailers include the world's largest department Macy's, along with H & M, Victoria Secret, Gap and hundred's of local and nation chains. The Gap store located across from Macy's is reportedly the company's highest grossing store in the nation.

"Retailers are seeking out locations in Herald Square based on the demographics of the pedestrian traffic and rents for retail space have escalated dramatically," a director at Cushman & Wakefield, Joanne Podell, said. "Across the street from Macy's two years ago, a rent of $350 per square foot was considered high. Today as much as $575 is achievable."

Last October, a joint venture of SL Green Realty Corp. and Jeff Sutton of Wharton Realty entered into a lease with Apple Computer to open Manhattan's third Apple Store on West 34th Street between Fifth and Sixth Avenues. The annual rent for the four-story store with a total of 30,000 square feet is about $5.56 million.

A total of 1,700 reasonably priced hotel rooms will be lost when Vornado finally closes the doors at the Hotel Pennsylvania. Many of these rooms will be replaced by a number of limited service hotels popping up around Herald Square. This month, the McSam Hotels will open a 70-room, limited service hotel at 373 Fifth Avenue, on the corner of 35th Street and Fifth Avenue. New hotels will also open at 57 West 35th Street, 63-67 West 35th Street, 60 West 36th Street, and 38-46 West 33rd Street. A nine-story office building at 1265 Broadway, known as 890 Avenue of the Americas, has been leased to a hotel operator to convert into a corporate and extended-stay hotel. An executive director of Cushman & Wakefield, Jon Caplan, said Herald Square "is poised for a renaissance given its central location, proximity to a plethora of transportation options, new residential development, and the retail transformation that are now underway."

[NYguy]

globest.com

Vornado Closes Manhattan Mall Buy

http://www.globest.com/newspics/nyc_manhattanmall.jpg

By Ian Ritter

NEW YORK CITY-Vornado Realty Trust has closed on its $689-million acquisition of the Manhattan Mall from Argent Ventures. The one-million-sf mixed-use center consists of 164,000 sf of retail space and 812,000 sf of offices.

Vornado also completed a $232-million financing of Manhattan Mall. Its loan “bears interest at Libor plus 0.55% and matures in February 2009 with three one-year extension options,” according to a company statement.
The 97%-leased Manhattan Mall is on Sixth Avenue between 33rd and 32nd streets. Steve & Barry’s University Sportswear is one of the center’s anchor tenants, while other stores include Aeropostale, Children’s Place and Victoria’s Secret.

In its office portion, Bank of America and the Interpublic Group lease a majority of the space. Vornado is also getting 250,000 sf of additional air rights in the transaction, which management expects to close some time in next year’s first quarter.

Paramus, NJ-based Vornado owns the 1.4-million-sf Pennsylvania Hotel across the street from the mall. In nearby Penn Plaza, Vornado also owns about six million sf of retail and office space. It is also one of the companies proposing the redevelopment of Farley Post Office/Moynihan Station as well as Madison Square Garden.

Locally based investment firm Argent acquired Manhattan Mall in 1998 by assuming $135 million in debt, according to published reports. In 2004 the outfit converted Manhattan Mall to a power center from a more traditional-type mall venue. Argent tapped Eastdil Secured when it decided to re-trade the property.

_________________________________________________


A look down at the Manhattan Mall and the Pennsylvania Hotel...

http://www.telescreen.org/esb/IM000036.JPG

[antinimby]

In that picture ^, the Hotel Penn is easily one of the top two or three best looking building out of that whole lot.

Naturally in this city, it would be the next to go. :rolleyes:

[pianoman11686]

Tear it down. It's not worth saving for the reasons being given.

There's an opportunity here to remake this long-inferior district anew. Let's take full advantage of it.

[jeffpark]

Tear it down. It's not worth saving for the reasons being given.

There's an opportunity here to remake this long-inferior district anew. Let's take full advantage of it.
for that matter why dont they tear down the Manhattan Mall,
and make it like the Bloomberg Tower.

[lofter1]

In that case ^^^ a big F'ing super tower should rise mid-block between 6th / 7th -- and not right at the very edge of Herald Square -- give the square some room to breath.

[LeCom]

Tear it down. It's not worth saving for the reasons being given.

There's an opportunity here to remake this long-inferior district anew. Let's take full advantage of it.
They already tried it with MSG and 1 and 2 Penn Plaza, right across the street. Look at the result.

The one redeeming quality of Vornado Tower would be that it would add to the local cluster and make 1 Penn Plaza look slightly less awkward and out of place.

[ablarc]

Everything bad in that aerial photograph is new, i.e. built after the demise of Penn Station.

Most of the older stuff looks pretty good and is harmonious as the area around Grand Central was until Trump ruined it by recladding his hotel in glass.

We have enough glassy districts in this city; only the Time Warner Center makes a really good case for itself, and that's because of the newfound strength of its setting: the curve and the fountain.

[pianoman11686]

Now a Trump-style recladding of Hotel Penn, I'd certainly not be in favor of. But, I'll repeat myself again: the reasons being given for saving it (look at how bad the "recent" stuff is) are not, IMO, strong enough, or even applicable.

[LeCom]

Now a Trump-style recladding of Hotel Penn, I'd certainly not be in favor of. But, I'll repeat myself again: the reasons being given for saving it (look at how bad the "recent" stuff is) are not, IMO, strong enough, or even applicable.
If there is a choice between recladding the hotel vs demolishing and building a new tower, I'd definitely go for the latter. The hotel's only redeeming quality is the exterior. If that is gone, then there will be no more reason for the building to remain around whatsoever.

[antinimby]

Someone mentioned this before but why can't they build on the low-rise underutilized site just (north of) across 33 St. from the Hotel?

If I'm not mistaken, Vornado owns that site as well and they could just as easily transfer all those air rights to here.

Don't make no damn sense.

[Derek2k3]

I guess that H&M is making a lot of money. They could use this site to replace some of the rooms from the Pennsylvania.

[antinimby]

^ A short little pip-squeak of a tower on a very prominent corner. What a waste.

Transfer Hotel Penn's air rights over there and build higher.

Btw, no way in the world rents from H&M is more than revenue generated from Hotel Penn, no way.

[Derek2k3]

Space: 185,000 square foot
Floors: 20
Architect: Brennan Beer Gorman/Architects

Well, that rendering is atleast 5 years old now. I bet a larger tower could be built if they bought some air rights.

[stache]

I'm pretty sure H&M is too far from Penn to do a transfer.

[Derek2k3]

I'm pretty sure H&M is too far from Penn to do a transfer.

Yea, I meant those small buildings on H&M's block. Real Deal says a 2.4 million sf tower is slated for the site.

[NYguy]

The preservationist are mobilizing...
http://www.2600.com/news/view/article/4947

HOTEL PENN THREATENED WITH DEMOLITION - HOPE CONFERENCES IN JEOPARDY

Posted 17 Jan 2007

We received this disturbing news earlier in the month. Apparently the realty company that owns the Hotel Pennsylvania, site of our HOPE conferences, wants to tear down the historic hotel and replace it with a huge financial tower. Such a move could spell the end of HOPE.

The Hotel Pennsylvania was built in 1919 and has a very rich history. It has been home to many a "big band" concert in its early years and was the inspiration for the famous Glenn Miller song "PEnnsylvania 6-5000," a phone number that still rings at the Hotel Pennsylvania switchboard. The building itself, as any HOPE attendee knows, is filled with hidden corridors, rooms, and even floors. Being right across the street from Penn Station (New York's main train station), it's extremely easy to get to for those coming to New York for the first time. And because it's not an overly expensive place to stay, it's proven very popular for travelers from all over the world.

We've hosted five HOPE conferences at the Hotel Pennsylvania since 1994 and the next one is set for 2008. In preparation for this, and to discuss the fate of the hotel among other things, we are today launching a web-based forum for all things HOPE-related. You can reach this brand new forum at talk.hope.net.

If you've been involved in any of the HOPE conferences, we'd like to see you become active in the HOPE Forums so you can help make future conferences even better. We also have a bunch of sections for those of you who would like to reminisce about previous conferences. If there's anything that the current threat to the hotel has taught us, it's that history should be preserved. We think HOPE has provided quite a lot of history along with a whole host of good memories. With luck and organization, we will be able to generate a lot more of this in the future. Your participation is vital in ensuring this.

As for saving the hotel, it's something we would very much like to do. But that will involve a huge challenge, not just for us, but for the thousands of other people around the world who want to see it preserved, maintained, and open for future generations. We just might have a shot. In any event, we hope you register for the forum and get involved in the discussion.

_______________________________

Save the hotel link for those interested:
http://talk.hope.net/viewforum.php?id=17

[Ed007Toronto]

Btw, no way in the world rents from H&M is more than revenue generated from Hotel Penn, no way.

Revenues perhaps but what kind of profits are they making from the hotel? Its an old building that is expensive to maintain I would imagine. Cheaper and more profitable to tear it down and build new than to maintain a down market hotel like this.

[antinimby]

Why should it matter what kind of profit it makes?

Profit is profit and you want the one with the most, which in this case is the hotel (as compared to H&M).

[Deimos]

The preservationist are mobilizing...
http://www.2600.com/news/view/article/4947


I'm not sure how to respond here... I'm all for 2600, used to read the print version back in the day (will never forget the first issue I saw on how to crack ATM's with a fake card). They've been a vocal group in the tech sector in the past, and have had some success in their endeavours, but I highly doubt that any NYC agency/company is going to listen to a bunch of hackers when it comes to real estate.

[NYguy]

CoStar Group (costar.com)

As NYC Shifts To a Landlord's Market, Office Reigns in Manhattan
High Rents, Low Vacancies and a Growing Demand for Space Expected To Drive The Next Big Construction Boom

January 17, 2007
Written by Jillian Ambroz


Office is king again in Manhattan. Rents are up, vacancies are down and shovels are hitting the dirt. There are even a few projects that could see a change in proposed use from hotel or residential to office.

It's not surprising that the Big Apple is taking a shine to the office market again after a few sluggish years that saw developers gravitate to the quick returns of residential development. In 2005, a paltry 200,000 square feet of office space delivered in Manhattan. Last year, the number ticked up to 3 million square feet, but that included the 1.7 million-square-foot 7 World Trade Center and the 856,000-square-foot Hearst Tower in Midtown.

Right now, in just Midtown and Lower Manhattan, there are 8.2 million square feet under construction in five buildings. And more is likely on the way, thanks to improving fundamentals.

The vacancy rate for the city dropped to 5.9% at the end of last year, compared to 7.1% at the beginning of the year, according to CoStar information. About 7 million square feet was absorbed over the year and rents moved up to $49.66 per square foot, up 4.6% from the end of the third quarter. Class A rents climbed to an average of $58.79 per square foot.

Vornado Realty Trust (NYSE: VNO) is planning to capitalize on the office sector's renewed momentum by transforming its Hotel Pennsylvania property at 401 Seventh Ave. and 32nd Street into a new 2.5 million-square-foot office tower with 500,000 square feet of trading space, according to published reports.

The Paramus, NJ-based REIT has toyed with the idea of redeveloping the property for years, but seemed to be happy with the performance of the property as a hotel. Perhaps it was just waiting to land the right anchor tenant. Now the buzz is that Lehman Brothers will anchor the redevelopment and consolidate its New York operations there.

Vornado is also busy drafting its plans for Moynihan Station with Related Cos. That project will see a complete reworking of Penn Station and if Vornado has its way, it will turn Madison Square Garden into a new office complex, too.

The deal to redevelop the Garden would include up to 5.5 million square feet of development rights at that site. Vornado and Related reportedly want to build two more towers there, one office and perhaps another for residential or hotel use.

Ken Ruderman, executive managing director with Studley Inc., calls the project "The New Rockefeller Center."

"I believe this regime of Vornado will pull this off. If they put the headquarters for Lehman right there, anchoring their plan, that's a hell of a great start -- like 30 Rock coming to town. And just take it from there," he said.

Vornado's not the only one rejiggering plans and reaching for the shovel. Macklowe Properties has reportedly changed its development plans for a site at the corner of Madison Ave. and 53rd St. to build an office tower where it had planned to construct a luxurious hotel and residential building.

There's been talk for a while that the 632,700-square-foot Lord & Taylor flagship store at 424 Fifth Ave. and 38th St. could be redeveloped to include more office space. JP Morgan Chase is said to be kicking the tires at a possible office development there. In October, Federated Department Stores Inc. sold the building, and an adjacent lot at 436 Fifth, to National Realty & Development Corp.

Over on the West Side, there are a couple of office projects brewing. A joint venture between SJP Properties and Prudential Real Estate Investors plans to erect a speculative 1.1 million-square-foot Class A office at the corner of Eighth Ave. and 42nd St. in Times Square.

Boston Properties Inc. (NYSE: BXP) is believed to be planning a new office development on a site it recently acquired at Eighth Ave. between 54th and 55th streets. The REIT plans a 1 million-square-foot office tower on a site that was earmarked for a Hyatt hotel by the previous owner, Robert Gladstone.

Downtown, developer Larry Silverstein is toiling away on the plans for the new World Trade Center. Over the next four to five years, Silverstein Properties has plans to deliver about 10 million square feet of commercial space in four buildings.

Now it looks as if the fifth planned tower may go office, too. Though the former Deutsche Bank building site at 130 Liberty St. was slated for residential development, JP Morgan Chase is talking to the Port Authority about developing a 57-story office tower there, according to a recent report in the New York Post.

Nearby, Goldman Sachs is in the midst of building its much ballyhooed, 43-story, 2.1 million-square-foot office tower on West St. between Vesey and Murray streets. The massive office project is expected to deliver in 2009.

The downtown projects currently under construction are 100% pre-leased, according to CoStar information. And the Midtown projects are 83% pre-leased, so any projects built on spec, likely won't stay that way for long.

There are plenty of tenants evaluating the market for large blocks of space -- upwards of 200,000 square feet -- and given the falling vacancy rate, they may be looking to anchor a new project. The list of prospective tenants-on-the-move includes Viacom, PricewaterhouseCoopers, HSBC, Bank of Tokyo, the NBA, Ogilvy & Mathers and Lehman Brothers.

Ruderman, who handles Midtown lease deals for Studley, says he has lease situations on his radar screen as far out as 2011 to 2015. He references a deal that his firm did 12 years ago when law firm Willkie Farr & Gallagher LLP inked a deal for space at the Equitable Building three years before its lease expired at Citicorp Center.

That kind of long-view strategy is much in play these days and will likely become the norm as fundamentals continue to improve. Tenants will want to lock-in deals now. Especially while rents continue to climb, where in Midtown, the top deals are hitting well above $100 per square foot.

[londonlawyer]

Is Lehman's HQ currently the 40 story (or so) building on 7th and 49th? If so, that seems to be quite a small space considering the needs of financial companies these days.

[kliq6]

yeah thats there HQ. the bought it from Morgan right after 9/11 when they needed to get something quick. About a month latter they realised that it is way to small and not built to there needs.They have had to rent also at a building on park ave and on ave if americas to keep there staff levels.

[JMGarcia]

The current Lehman building that they got from Morgan was built by Morgan a good 30 stories shorter than was allowed as of right. Very shortsighted IMO.

[londonlawyer]

yeah thats there HQ. the bought it from Morgan right after 9/11 when they needed to get something quick. About a month latter they realised that it is way to small and not built to there needs.They have had to rent also at a building on park ave and on ave if americas to keep there staff levels.

Thnx. I thought so.

[antinimby]

The current Lehman building that they got from Morgan was built by Morgan a good 30 stories shorter than was allowed as of right. Very shortsighted IMO.That's quite a bit of air rights left.

Any chance it gets transferred to another site?

[kliq6]

1600 broadway took 10 FAR from it

[jeffpark]

there is a rendering of this new Tower in the REBNY banquet journal
its just of the first like 7 floors on one angle and the Glass looks like the BLOOBERG TOWER it will ba called 15 Penn Plaza,
so maybe we are in for another Cesar Pelli or now known as "Pelli Clarke Pelli"

[NoyokA]

Thanks for the heads up. Hopefully somebody can grab a copy and post it here.

[londonlawyer]

there is a rendering of this new Tower in the REBNY banquet journal
its just of the first like 7 floors on one angle and the Glass looks like the BLOOBERG TOWER it will ba called 15 Penn Plaza,
so maybe we are in for another Cesar Pelli or now known as "Pelli Clarke Pelli"

Does it appear to look the same as the latest rendering that has been posted (which I believe is an old design)?

[NYguy]

there is a rendering of this new Tower in the REBNY banquet journal
its just of the first like 7 floors on one angle and the Glass looks like the BLOOBERG TOWER it will ba called 15 Penn Plaza,
so maybe we are in for another Cesar Pelli or now known as "Pelli Clarke Pelli"

I surely hope it doesn't look like the Bloomberg Tower, at least not at the top. But 15 Penn Plaza, interesting. We'll probably end up calling it something else (Lehman tower?)

[londonlawyer]

Lehman eyes 400,000 s/f at 1271 Ave. of Americas
Lehman Brothers is said to be close to signing a 400,000 s/f lease for space that could serve its expansion needs while it waits for a new Manhattan office tower to be developed.

Although the global investment bank has a reputation among city brokers for being a fickle tenant that has flirted with large leases in the recent past only to back out or take space elsewhere, the firm has zeroed in on a block of space at 1271 Avenue of the Americas that one of the building's largest tenants, Time Inc., has had on the market for sublease since March.

The space would come with rents in the $70s per s/f and a ten-year term, a relatively short period for such a significant block. It is common for very large tenants to make 20-25 year commitments when leasing hundreds of thousands of square feet and sources say that Lehman's selection of a short-term deal is indicative that the company has a larger real estate strategy in the works.

Indeed, Lehman Brothers is in talks with Vornado Realty Trust to be an anchor tenant in a major office tower that Vornado is planning to develop on the site of the Pennsylvania Hotel. A Vornado executive confirmed Lehman's interest in the deal, which would be a boon to Vornado's plan to remake the office district surrounding Penn Station. Despite having some of the best transportation infrastructure in the city, the neighborhood hasn't completely dusted off the grit nor shed the antiquated low rise, brick buildings from its past as a center for manufacturing and the garment industry. But Vornado has purchased a number of buildings in the area and, along with The Related Companies, has plans to redevelop Penn Station, all in the hopes of erecting brand new class A buildings in a neighborhood it is trying to convert into a destination for corporate tenants who typically opt for Midtown's more established office corridors. A deal with a firm of Lehman's clout would be a huge endorsement of Vornado's vision for the area and also would attach a timeline to the project's development because the investment bank undoubtedly would need the space ready for occupancy before the 10-year deal it is currently negotiating expires.

A CB Richard Ellis team led by the firm's New York co-chairman, Robert Alexander, is representing Lehman in its lease at 1271 Avenue of the Americas. Studley represents the sublessor Time Inc. The deal is for floors 35, 37 through 45, and part of 46. Lehman Brothers currently occupies space in 1301 Avenue of the Americas, 50 Broadway, 399 Park Avenue and 745 Seventh Avenue, which it purchased from Morgan Stanley after 9/11 for its headquarters.

COPYRIGHT 2006 Hagedorn Publication
Copyright 2006, Gale Group. All rights reserved. Gale Group is a Thomson Corporation Company.

[TonyO]

^ that's big news.

[NYguy]

Crain's New York

Lehman close to taking Time Inc. lease

By: Julie Satow
February 1, 2007

After pounding the pavement for the past several months in search of expansion space, Lehman Brothers is close to signing a deal for a large block of office space on Sixth Avenue.

The investment bank is set to take a 10-year sublease from Time Inc. for 414,000 square feet at 1271 Sixth Ave. The space, on floors 35 and 37 through 46, has an asking rent of $70 a square foot.

The building, between West 50th and West 51st streets, is known as the Time & Life Building. The publishing giant, which announced plans earlier this month to lay off nearly 300 employees, will continue to occupy most of the building's 2 million square feet.

"While we are currently looking at plans to lease out several of the top floors of our building, 1271 will continue to be Time Inc.'s headquarters," said a spokeswoman for the company. She would not comment on the impending lease.

Brokers for Studley, which represented Time Inc., and CB Richard Ellis, which represented Lehman Brothers, had no comment.

Lehman signed the short-term lease in expectation of a future move into a ground-up office building that Vornado Realty Trust is planning for the site of the Hotel Pennsylvania across from Madison Square Garden. The investment bank is also negotiating an option to stay on at 1271 Sixth Ave. after the sublet expires.

Lehman already occupies space at 1301 Sixth Ave., one block north of 1271 Sixth Ave. Its headquarters are at 745 Seventh Ave., between West 49th and West 50th streets.

[londonlawyer]

I wonder how much of the Vornado Tower will be pre-leased before it's even built. It seems like Lehman and perhaps the NBA might occupy 1.5 M sf.

[TimmyG]

How is Vornado pronounced? Does it rhyme with tornado, or does it sound different?

[antinimby]

Rhymes with Color-ado, not tornado.

[kliq6]

Lehman will need 1.5 themself

[londonlawyer]

Lehman will need 1.5 themself

Wow. Will they keep the Times Sq. HQ also?

If Lehman takes 1.5 sf and the NBA takes 250-300,000 sf, this tower will be mostly full before it's built.

Who does Vornado use as a developer? I really hope that a 750 to 800 foot tall box is not built.

[kliq6]

This new building will become there headquaters and they will use 745 to move other staff from 399 park and a few building on ave of the americas into.

As for who Vornado uses as a developer, they are a developer so I cant answer that one

[lofter1]

NY1 reporters pronounce "Vornado" as if it rhymes with "tornado" :cool:

[lofter1]

Rhymes with Color-ado, not tornado.


Is that Colo - RAH (as in "awesome") - do :confused:

Or Colo - RA (as in "radical") - do :confused: :confused:

[londonlawyer]

The block just north of this building with all of the tawdry shops in twenty run down buildings must go. It's such an eyesore, and I can't imagine Lehman's I bankers wanted to dodge that mierda. Does Vornado own any of that site?

[lofter1]

Gift ideas for LondonLawyer ...


http://images.traderonline.com/img/9/dealer/758430/87268045_1.jpg (http://ads.sold.com/detailimage.html?mb=1&c1=%23000000&c2=%23C6C6C6&imgNum=1&imgMidPath=/img/9/dealer/758430/&imgArray=87268045_1.jpg&cap=Picture 1&siteCode=southeasternequipment&capArray=Picture%201#)


http://ads.sold.com/moredetails.html?87268045&sitecode=southeasternequipment

[londonlawyer]

I like that. (Salma Hayek and Naomi Watts racy photo albums would be nice too.)

[NYguy]

The block just north of this building with all of the tawdry shops in twenty run down buildings must go. It's such an eyesore, and I can't imagine Lehman's I bankers wanted to dodge that mierda. Does Vornado own any of that site?

What, and lose the Old Navy?...:)

Anyway, for some updates on how the whole stop-the-demolition movement is going, check out the site:
http://talk.hope.net/viewforum.php?id=17

[jeffpark]

i heard somewhere that Vornado is planning a office tower on 57th Street, does anyone have any more information about this project.?

[londonlawyer]

i heard somewhere that Vornado is planning a office tower on 57th Street, does anyone have any more information about this project.?

I wonder where. The only development sites I can think of are:

1. The Hardrock which Extell owns;
2. 157 W57th which Extell owns;
3. The Ritz fur site which allegedly will be a residential project;
4. The Shelly's site which some hotel owns;
5. The empty lowrise buildings that straddle an empty lot at 52,54 and 56 W.57th. To my knowledge, Vornado bought the attractive old building located at 50 W. 57th. I hope that they don't raze it.

I would like to see the northeast corner of 57th and Lex redeveloped. There's a mediocre building there and some run-down low rise structures. Considering that Vornado owns the Bloomberg Tower, it has an interest in sprucing up that corner.

[kliq6]

I wonder where. The only development sites I can think of are:

1. The Hardrock which Extell owns;
2. 157 W57th which Extell owns;
3. The Ritz fur site which allegedly will be a residential project;
4. The Shelly's site which some hotel owns;
5. The empty lowrise buildings that straddle an empty lot at 52,54 and 56 W.57th. To my knowledge, Vornado bought the attractive old building located at 50 W. 57th. I hope that they don't raze it.

I would like to see the northeast corner of 57th and Lex redeveloped. There's a mediocre building there and some run-down low rise structures. Considering that Vornado owns the Bloomberg Tower, it has an interest in sprucing up that corner.

Only site close to 57th street they could build on is the NYC and company store on 58th and Lexington that they built. They can build a 30-story office tower on that site on top of the store

[londonlawyer]

The could raze 50 W 57th. I hope not. It's a nice building. I desperately want to see 52, 54 and 56 W57th razed and developed. Does anyone know if the two buildings (52 and 56) and the lot in the middle are owned by different entities?

[jeffpark]

The could raze 50 W 57th. I hope not. It's a nice building. I desperately want to see 52, 54 and 56 W57th razed and developed. Does anyone know if the two buildings (52 and 56) and the lot in the middle are owned by different entities?
we have discussed this on another forum and i had written,
that when Steve bought 50 West 57th from Harry that he might be having a larger plan to assemble that together with 52,54,& 56 along with the vacant land on 56th Street

[londonlawyer]

we have discussed this on another forum and i had written,
that when Steve bought 50 West 57th from Harry that he might be having a larger plan to assemble that together with 52,54,& 56 along with the vacant land on 56th Street

But who owns those other three parcels?

[NYguy]

Observer

Doomed Hotel Penn Sends Other Lodges Scrambling for Doggie Style
To all the snowbound hounds that received a few extra hours of pampering at the all-too-pooch-friendly Hotel Pennsylvania last week: Lap it up, bitches.


http://www.observer.com/data/articleimages/photoimages/022607_article_shott.jpg

My room, please (and don’t tarry!): A Westminster competitor is spirited into the Hotel Pennsylvania.


By Chris Shott

This year’s Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show was likely your last chance to romp around the wood-chip-covered “Green Room.” Or to leave your own personal mark on the bleach-stained carpets that line the loathsome two-star hotel’s hallways—or, better yet, on hotel flack turned “doggie concierge” Jerry Grymek’s pant leg.

The landmark hotel, which every year reserves its best service strictly for four-legged guests, may be history even before next year’s show.

A report last month by brokerage Grubb & Ellis indicated that Vornado Realty Trust, which owns the longstanding hotel site, plans to demolish the swing-era monument and erect an enormous office tower in its place. No pets allowed!

Vornado has been unabashedly unimpressed by the dog show’s unofficial host hotel for years, likening the building in a company report to “a placeholder, sort of like a parking lot”—which might help to explain the staff’s longstanding no-fear policy when it comes to fur balls.

One senior researcher at Grubb & Ellis—who noted that the hotel scoop came straight from the mouths of boastful Vornado execs—told The Observer that demolition would probably begin within the next 12 months in order to meet the developer’s stated goal of constructing the new office tower by 2011.

Dog-show spokesman David Frei downplayed the much-maligned hotel’s demise as a subject of frequent speculation, but some pooch-pageant-goers who also heard the news were already making post–Hotel Penn–era preparations even before this year’s dog show had ended.

Tara Williams, revenue manager at the nearby Radisson Martinique on Broadway, said the rival hotel’s shuttering was on the lips of several guests with pets last week. The hubbub even stirred up some rather early room-booking buzz.

“A lot of our dog-show people were kind of panicking about making their reservations for next year,” said Ms. Williams, whose own facility tried to lure dog-show-goers away from Hotel Penn with promises of a makeshift dog-run downstairs and a “barkfest breakfast buffet” for both pups and people.

“Usually, they start booking in the summertime,” said Ms. Williams. “But a lot of them said they would be starting in the next month or so.”

The rush to reserve is understandable. Shuttering the overly pet-friendly Hotel Penn will create a significant shortage in kennel-club-worthy rooms citywide, given the more than 1,000 dogs that reportedly roamed the 1,700-room venue this year.

“A lot of hotels in the area, they don’t take dogs,” Ms. Williams noted, “so it becomes a problem for people who come from out of town.”

In fact, only 12 of the 19 hotels recommended on Westminster’s Web site even allow dogs—make that 11 of 18 if you take away the Hotel Penn. (The other seven suggested are presumably for mere spectators.) And three of those so-called dog-friendly venues will only accept pooches up to a certain size. The Park Lane, for instance, won’t shelter pets larger than 10 pounds; Springer spaniels like “Best in Show” winner Felicity’s Diamond Jim would be left out in the cold.

None of the others are as big or as conveniently located as the Pennsylvania, which sits just across the street from the dog show’s home for decades, Madison Square Garden.

Even doubling up, those 1,000 displaced dogs would utterly overwhelm the nearby 532-room Radisson, located a mere block away along West 34th Street; it hosted a comparatively minor 200 or so dogs last week.

“I’m assuming we’ll have more groups next year,” Ms. Williams said—and hopefully, a much larger dog-run.

[kliq6]

if they want this tower opened by 2011, they better start demolition next week, this may take a year to demolish this hotel alone

[NYguy]

if they want this tower opened by 2011, they better start demolition next week, this may take a year to demolish this hotel alone


Perhaps, perhaps not.

[londonlawyer]

I prefer saving the Hotel Penn, but I know that it will be razed. Consequently, I hope that a 750 box will not be constructed on this site. Because the site's footprint is so huge, an enormous amount of square footage could be contained in the trading floor base resulting in a smallish tower overall.

[NYguy]

I prefer saving the Hotel Penn, but I know that it will be razed. Consequently, I hope that a 750 box will not be constructed on this site. Because the site's footprint is so huge, an enormous amount of square footage could be contained in the trading floor base resulting in a smallish tower overall.

There will be a half million square feet of trading floors topped by a 2 msf office tower.

[londonlawyer]

There will be a half million square feet of trading floors topped by a 2 msf office tower.

I figured something to that effect. If the trading floor base is about 100 feet high, couldn't the 2 m sf tower be short and stubby? For example, how tall is the CBIC building on 42nd and Madison?

I hope that Lehman opts for a masterpiece, but I don't want to get my hopes up. Also, do you know how many sf the Bear Stearns tower has?

[NYguy]

If the trading floor base is about 100 feet high, couldn't the 2 m sf tower be short and stubby? For example, how tall is the CBIC building on 42nd and Madison?

Not very tall, but it's not 2msf either. Look at the BofA and Goldman towers for comparison (though those towers are about a half msf smaller). There will be zoning and setback issues for this site. I would start heights at 900 ft and up...

[londonlawyer]

Not very tall, but it's not 2msf either. Look at the BofA and Goldman towers for comparison (though those towers are about a half msf smaller). There will be zoning and setback issues for this site. I would start heights at 900 ft and up...

I hope so!

[kliq6]

Not very tall, but it's not 2msf either. Look at the BofA and Goldman towers for comparison (though those towers are about a half msf smaller). There will be zoning and setback issues for this site. I would start heights at 900 ft and up...

CIBC is like 1.2 million sf but there are no trading floors, what was to be the trading floors are now meeting rooms for Pricewaterhouse.

FYI
Goldman is 1.9 million and BOA is 2.1 miliion sf

[Scraperfannyc]

I visited NYC last weekend. Many of the art deco classics that once defined NYC are slowly but surely being replaced by bland forgettable boxes. Heast is one exception as well as the newer buildings in the meatpacking district, although the ones in the meatpacking district are very short.

I hate to think that you have to be square to be in NYC these days.

[NYguy]

DealBreaker.com

Trading Spaces

The last time we checked, the only reason to be envious of Lloyd Blankfein’s henchmen was because some of them were getting upwards of $100 mm in bonuses (and because B-fein had carried on a tradition instituted during the Paulson era wherein on Tuesdays and every first and third Friday of the month, the girls are on Goldman).

According to the WSJ, however, there’s a new motivation for keying doctored league tables into the Goldies’ cars: trading floor envy. The Masters of the Universe are in the midst of erecting a “gleaming new building in lower Manhattan that will feature six gigantic state-of-the-art hangar-size trading floors (72,000 square feet each, with room for more than 900 traders on each floor)” and a Jamba Juice. If you’re the sort of person who’s made jealous by that sort of thing, you’re not alone—the top BB-banks are going to great—desperate, sad, whatever—lengths to keep up with the Goldmans. Let’s take a look at the competition.


Lehman Brothers Holdings:

Mulling over a deal with Vornado to build a HQ and trading floors where the Hotel Pennsylvania on Seventh Avenue still stands, i.e. Penn Station/MSG adjacent. Good for those commuting into the city on the Midtown Direct already/can’t resist Auntie Anne’s. Bad for anyone under 40/more importantly, those with an aversion to the types of people who ride the LIRR (read: anyone who doesn’t ride the LIRR and even some of those who do. Self-loathing. You know how it is).


Merrill Lynch & Co.:

Also considering the Hotel Pennsylvania site, in addition to the new WTC area currently under construction. Lease is up in 2013. The clock is ticking.


J.P. Morgan Chase & Co.:

Talks with the Port Authority are “progressing but not a done deal yet.” The only thing we know about the Port Authority is that it’s a good place to pick up hookers…and with our analyst and associate attrition…you do the math.


Morgan Stanley

Has “talked with several landlords about spaces large enough for improved trading facilities, though its plans are unclear.” A spokesperson for Morgan declined to comment though we’ve heard that Robert Kindler will only entertain the possibility of venues large enough to host the Mergers and Acquisitions book party.

[bluesky10E29]

Very interesting NYGuy...I had heard of the Lehman Penn Plaza potential (saw the new Vornado models last week) but had not put it into context with the new Goldman Tower on the West Side highway. Thanks

[Derek2k3]

Could you tell us about these models?

[bluesky10E29]

The Models of Penn Station show (with 1 & 2 Penn existing) the proposed development of the new MSG on the lot west of the current Post office, the glass dome that will enclose the current open square in the post office, and how the new stadium will have egress not up the current stairs of the Post office but rather on the side streets (33rd & 32nd??). The proposed development of the mult-use tower on the existing site of the Hotel Penn and the latest aquisition of 100 West 33rd Street. Besides that I will try to find some renderings...or get them from someone at VNO. Since losing EOP they have been making a concerted effort to get the Penn Station VNO plans fully underway.

[londonlawyer]

The Models of Penn Station show (with 1 & 2 Penn existing) the proposed development of the new MSG on the lot west of the current Post office, the glass dome that will enclose the current open square in the post office, and how the new stadium will have egress not up the current stairs of the Post office but rather on the side streets (33rd & 32nd??). The proposed development of the mult-use tower on the existing site of the Hotel Penn and the latest aquisition of 100 West 33rd Street. Besides that I will try to find some renderings...or get them from someone at VNO. Since losing EOP they have been making a concerted effort to get the Penn Station VNO plans fully underway.

Do you know how tall (in terms of feet) the new buildings will be?

[Citytect]

I really don't care how tall they are. Just let them be well-designed and friendly to the urban environment. I have high hopes for this area.

[MidtownGuy]

Needless to say, I am against razing the Pennsylvania Hotel. Put the offices elsewhere. Like to the WEST. Wa-wa-wa there's no subway yet over there...too god damned bad. I'm sick of hearing that!!! Enough is enough. Force the developers. It has to be done. Stop carving up every historic block and replacing them with featureless glass boxes. How tall will this replacement be? Who gives a bloody damn at this point. Let me save everyone the anticipation: it'll be approx.40-60 floors, straight up from the ground to it's flat boring roof (unless they get really creative and add a toothpick spire on top:rolleyes: ). I guarantee this will not be an 80 story knockout beauty if that's what you people are crossing your fingers for; just another unimaginative, cheap-material-pressed-on piece of crap going up, and one more bit of the plateau filled in.
Big woopie.
In my eyes, this is better:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/205/445589833_1c9838e053_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/224/445589851_6bd5feff8f_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/161/445589861_cfd2b52bb1_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/169/445589869_69621993da_b.jpg

This building is part of one of New York's incredible, atmospheric old streetwalls. This, looking south:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/250/445601452_c0777d6fb4_b.jpg

[JCMAN320]

I agree with you midtown guy this is a complete disregard to the city's history. People on here are bitching at why they can't build decroative skyscrapers because of high construction, but yet you are going to tear down one of NY's most oppulent hotels and beautiful pieces of architecture.

I had the chance to go in the Hotel Pennsylvania when a friend of mine from Canada came down to see NY and I was up in the hotel rooms and in the lobby and the place is beautiful. This is a travesty this cannot be allowed to happen!!!! :(

[ablarc]

Vast and wonderful.


That last shot is especially impressive. Wow, don't want to break that up.

[NoyokA]

Vast and wonderful.


That last shot is especially impressive. Wow, don't want to break that up.

Only thing is the Hotel Penn isn't in that shot.

[MidtownGuy]

But it's on the very next block, so it's a part of this grouping for sure and would be in the picture if I had backed up some more.

[NoyokA]

But it's on the very next block, so it's a part of this grouping for sure and would be in the picture if I had backed up some more.

I wasn't arguing that, I know the location of the Hotel Penn. I also think the building you did picture, directly to the south is far superior and more aesthetically pleasing to the eye than the ordinary Hotel Penn is.

[TREPYE]

Needless to say, I am against razing the Pennsylvania Hotel. Put the offices elsewhere. Like to the WEST. Wa-wa-wa there's no subway yet over there...too god damned bad. I'm sick of hearing that!!! Enough is enough. Force the developers. It has to be done. Stop carving up every historic block and replacing them with featureless glass boxes. How tall will this replacement be? Who gives a bloody damn at this point. Let me save everyone the anticipation: it'll be approx.40-60 floors, straight up from the ground to it's flat boring roof (unless they get really creative and add a toothpick spire on top:rolleyes: ). I guarantee this will not be an 80 story knockout beauty if that's what you people are crossing your fingers for; just another unimaginative, cheap-material-pressed-on piece of crap going up, and one more bit of the plateau filled in.
Big woopie.
In my eyes, this is better:



I totally agree. Its not the most beautiful of NYC's old school relics but its scream NY and it is part of that locations fabric. Wanna do us a favor with newer and "better" architecture...then deconstruct those piece of garbage Penn plaza buildings which are disgusting pieces of architecture.

How come the Penn Hotel building was not landmarked?:confused:

[NYCDOC]

Just adding my voice to opposing this destruction. We can't afford to keep loosing these buildings that give NY its defining character. Undoubtedly a little spit and shine could be used here, but please not another glass box!

[pianoman11686]

I briefly worked for a non-profit a few summers ago whose offices were in the Hotel Penn. It was one of the worst-looking, filthiest office spaces I had ever seen. This place needs more than a little "sprucing up"; it needs a complete makeover, which ain't gonna come cheap.

So unless a higher-standard hotel operator comes along and commits to remarketing this as truly worthy of its architecture and location, I don't envision it fitting in with the new Penn Station/MSG development scheme.

[MidtownGuy]

Non-profit office spaces usually are filthy. Maybe that filthy little office wasn't
representative of the whole place. Look, it's not exactly the Palace but I was in there meeting an old college friend who'd come to town on a budget and I tell you that while the room wasn't spotless, it certainly wasn't filthy or gross. The city needs rooms at all price levels. It's a good location at a budget price.


remarketing this as truly worthy of its architecture and location,
??huh?? It certainly is worthy. A little dirt doesn't change that. No one wants to clean the dirt off right now? OK, well the building has HISTORY... we can allow it a bit more and wait a bit longer. People in the future will appreciate this far more than whatever they build here.
They can build the towers across the street, and this doesn't have to fit in with them or any newfangled scheme, it fits in with NEW YORK, and beautifully, thank you.:p

[antinimby]

All this ranting on this board will not do a single thing to help the Hotel Penn.

If you guys are really serious about saving it, then you're gonna have to do something more productive.

Better get started right now because the time is ticking...

For starters, anyone care to write a passionate letter to Vornado?

Tell them what you are saying here and not just that but come up with a good solution such an alternative site for them to build on.

[antinimby]

How many cities out there wouldn't kill to have a streetscape that looks even 1/10 as vibrant as this?
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/161/445589861_cfd2b52bb1_b.jpg

[NYguy]

We may already have a winner...
(NY Post)

http://www.nypost.com/img/cols/loisweiss_btb.jpg

Merrill Lynch has "zeroed in" on and taken the lead in negotiations with Vornado Realty Trust for the new office tower that will take the place of the Hotel Pennsylvania.

There's a group of Merrill folks that want to be closer to Midtown. Peter Riguardi of Jones Lang LaSalle has been handling the firm's search and did not return calls for comment by press time . . .

Advertising giant Omnicom is "advertising" for around 300,000 feet to consolidate out of buildings that include 11 Madison Ave., working through their longtime broker Lee Feld of WF Realty, who could not be reached . . .

Bear Stearns is coming out of hibernation and needs more space . . .

It looks as if the lawyers at Cravath, Swaine & Moore waited too long to lock up a move out of Worldwide Plaza before their lease expires at the end of 2008.

Alternative 500,000-foot blocks have shriveled. The firm is now negotiating with new building owner Macklowe Properties to pick up a renewal option that we hear involves an appraisal for the next rent.

Ira Schuman of Studley has been leading the legal space search. No comments from spokespeople from Studley and Macklowe.

Complicating every company's search is that the next wave of large new office towers won't be ready until at least 2010, pushing up rents in all building classes. And you thought your office rent was expensive now?

[ZippyTheChimp]

??huh?? It certainly is worthy. A little dirt doesn't change that. No one wants to clean the dirt off right now? OK, well the building has HISTORY... we can allow it a bit more and wait a bit longer. People in the future will appreciate this far more than whatever they build here.As soon as plans are finalized for Penn Sta/MSG, this building would soar in value. Even if it were landmarked and couldn't be changed, I wouldn't mind owning it.

[Fabrizio]

whew.... I'm relieved to come back here this morning and see those passionate about this buildings architecture.

I'm especially impressed with Midtownguy's photo of that streetwall.

THAT'S the NYC we all fell in love with... it's that GOTHAM-esque streetwall that says NYC.

Today every half-a$$ed 3rd world city has flashy "creative" skyscrapers but only NYC has that kind of atmosphere.

The most likely scenario will be to have it broken up with tacky mirrored glass.

That's an improvement?

[NYCDOC]

I agree with Antinimby . . . we need to think of something to DO rather than complaining. Any suggestions? Anyone think that contacting some media outlets would be worthwhile? Or will it just fall on deaf ears? Would Landmarks be helpful here?

I would really like for this to be a stepping stone to influencing the entire Penn station/midtown west development. We have to fight to keep this vibrant streetscape and make sure that new areas of development (west side yard) continue to build on NYC character not make it into just another dull American city. I can't stand to see a glass tower here that doesn't have space for smaller retailers, destroys this great street wall, alters the uniformity of building material that is present here, and makes for the boring streetscape that we are getting from so many new towers (ie BOA).

Ideas?

[NYguy]

I agree with Antinimby . . . we need to think of something to DO rather than complaining. Any suggestions? Anyone think that contacting some media outlets would be worthwhile? Or will it just fall on deaf ears? Would Landmarks be helpful here?

Perhaps, perhaps not:

"It holds a lot of cultural resonance with the city because of all the big bands that played there, but the inside has been pretty much stripped," says Peg Breen, president of the New York Landmarks Conservancy. "I don't think anyone who has stayed there recently has been overly in love with the place … Whatever tears are going to be shed, they're too late."

I like her words. Sweet, and to the point.



We have to fight to keep this vibrant streetscape and make sure that new areas of development (west side yard) continue to build on NYC character not make it into just another dull American city. I can't stand to see a glass tower here that doesn't have space for smaller retailers, destroys this great street wall, alters the uniformity of building material that is present here

Who says the vibrant steetscape is going anywhere??? Why exactly will the streetwall disappear??? And as far as losing uniformity of building materials, ever walk the streets of Manhattan??? On the radar of everything just mentioned, this building is hardly a blip...

[Fabrizio]

Ms. Breen's words are simply stupid:

"It holds a lot of cultural resonance with the city because of all the big bands that played there..."

No dear, it's much more than that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKim,_Mead,_and_White

http://www.nyc-architecture.com/ARCH/ARCH-McKimMeadandWhite.htm

[ablarc]

And as far as losing uniformity of building materials, ever walk the streets of Manhattan??? On the radar of everything just mentioned, this building is hardly a blip...
There's a stylistic unity here that reminds me of the deco-masonry district that used to exist around Grand Central before Trump reclad the hotel in glass and Attia built his 'scraper. Character vanished. Way too much variety.

Does anyone remember the ticket office in the shape of a granite eagle on the southwest corner of 42nd Street and Park Avenue South? A one story exercise in monumental scale and a stylistic tour-de-force.

[Fabrizio]

Yes... and the area of Madison in the 40s and 30's was a great red-brick canyon up until the mid 1980's when they stated doing reclads (Abercrombie&Fitch building etc.) The area lost all of it's class.

Look at the uniformity of upper 5th with that beautiful limestone street wall that goes on for blocks.

[MikeW]

You guys trying to save a lost cause again. This one really isn't worth it. It's too bad they don't allow implosions in Manhattan, because I'd love to push the button on this one.

I use to work at the old Willoughby's on 32nd Street. I walked past that dump evey day. I even went to a few Star Trek conventions there (a looonnng time ago). I really don't know why anyone would want to save this place. I'd love to see Vornado build something really impressive for Merrill, et al, there.

[antinimby]

But that's the problem, they won't be building anything impressive here.

Who wants to bet that they'll build something here along the same lines as this:

http://207.44.228.232/photopost/data//508/85886pa03.jpg

[Alonzo-ny]

Ill bet they won't.

There's something sad about people who only see the bad side of an opportunity for greatness.

[pianoman11686]

Non-profit office spaces usually are filthy. Maybe that filthy little office wasn't
representative of the whole place.

My comments were meant to be general about the building's entire stock of sub-grade office space. The non-profit's office, as well as the hallways, elevator, bathrooms, and from what I could tell by walking by other offices, were all in a similar condition of decay.


Look, it's not exactly the Palace but I was in there meeting an old college friend who'd come to town on a budget and I tell you that while the room wasn't spotless, it certainly wasn't filthy or gross. The city needs rooms at all price levels. It's a good location at a budget price.

Well, maybe that last point has something more to do with it. Should (will?) this hotel remain "budget" after the Penn Station area is transformed into a Class A office district?


It certainly is worthy. A little dirt doesn't change that. No one wants to clean the dirt off right now? OK, well the building has HISTORY...

What I'm saying is that for it to be preserved, it needs a serious upgrade so that it does fit in with the new Penn Station. For that to happen, a hotel operator needs to show interest in taking over ownership. So far, that hasn't happened, and there's probably a good reason for it.

[MidtownGuy]

Should (will?) this hotel remain "budget" after the Penn Station area is transformed into a Class A office district?

why not?

[Fabrizio]

Pianoman: "My comments were meant to be general about the building's entire stock of sub-grade office space. The non-profit's office, as well as the hallways, elevator, bathrooms, and from what I could tell by walking by other offices, were all in a similar condition of decay."

What does this have to do with anything?

Was there any bigger dump than the Royalton? And the Paramount, before it's makeover, made the Pennsylvania Hotel seem like the Plaza.

[pianoman11686]

Um, maybe it has something to do with this building sitting in what will, within a few years, be one of the new "prime locations" in the entire business district. I can hardly imagine its owner will be content with it remaining a one-star hotel/Class C office building.

[Derek2k3]

My opinion regarding the demolition of the hotel is dependent on the design of its replacement. Too bad by the time this is revealed, the redevelopment will already be a done deal...if it already isn't. If we knew what Macklowe was proposing before hand, more hell would've been raised.

[ablarc]

If we knew what Macklowe was proposing before hand, more hell would've been raised.
Exactly why he keeps things under wraps.

Wouldn't it be nice if developers thought of public comments as a way to improve their projects; and wouldn't it be nice if public comments actually functioned that way?

Maybe a few do, but most don't.

So we end up with secrecy or adversarial standoffs.

[NYguy]

Will this new tower include a hotel? A quote from an article in the NY Sun:
http://www.nysun.com/article/52778

Rapid Appreciation In Herald, Times Squares

By MICHAEL STOLER
April 19, 2007

Driving much of the Herald Square area's appreciation, and perhaps the biggest beneficiary of its rising values, is Vornado Realty Trust, with a portfolio of about 7.5 million square feet in Penn Plaza and Herald Square.

Its holdings in Penn Plaza include One, Two, and Eleven Penn Plaza, 7 W. 34th St., and 330 W. 34th St. In January, Vornado paid $689 million for the acquisition of the mixed-use Manhattan Mall, located on the entire Sixth Avenue block front between 32nd and 33rd streets.

The property is adjacent to the 1.4 million-square-foot, 1,700-room Hotel Pennsylvania, also owned by Vornado. At my class at the NYU Real Estate Institute last week, the president of Vornado Realty Trust, Michael Fascitelli, said the company would likely raze the hotel and build an office building that may have a smaller hotel component.

[kliq6]

if they cant land a major financial tenant, then yes. So far Lehman, JP Morgan and Merrill are using this site as a bargaining chip for other sites they really want

[londonlawyer]

if they cant land a major financial tenant, then yes. So far Lehman, JP Morgan and Merrill are using this site as a bargaining chip for other sites they really want

It's interesting that the banks don't really want to go there. I thought that they did but found it odd since the area currently is a dump. The southeast corner of 34th and 7th with its hodgepodge of small dumpy buildings housing filthy fast food joints and cheap stores is disgusting, as is the northeast corner of 34th and 8th. I can't see I-Bankers walking amidst the hoi polloi..

[kliq6]

You hit right on it, and its really Vornado's fault. They own so much in that area that they should take the step to improve the area thus in the long run helping them. remeber this project has been talked about since 2000

[londonlawyer]

You hit righ ton it, and its really Vornado's fault. They own so much in that area that they should take the step to improve the area thus in the long run helping them. remeber this project has been talked about since 2000

Then again, firms like Conde Naste, Skadden and Cravath gambled on Times Sq. while it was still less than desirable. Before the B of A site was cleared, it was every bit as disgusting as the sites near Penn noted above, as was the flea market across the street.

Does Vornado own any of those disgusting sites on 34th and 7th and 34th and 8th? If so, I'd rather see them developed before the Duane Reade site since the latter is not disgusting.

[Alonzo-ny]

We have to fight to keep this vibrant streetscape


It's interesting that the banks don't really want to go there. I thought that they did but found it odd since the area currently is a dump. The southeast corner of 34th and 7th with its hodgepodge of small dumpy buildings housing filthy fast food joints and cheap stores is disgusting, as is the northeast corner of 34th and 8th. I can't see I-Bankers walking amidst the hoi polloi..

One mans vibrant streetscape is anothers hodgepodge

[NYguy]

if they cant land a major financial tenant, then yes. So far Lehman, JP Morgan and Merrill are using this site as a bargaining chip for other sites they really want

Probably, but I don't think its a matter of banks not wanting to go there. There are already major improvements on the way, including the redevelopment of Penn Station and the massive developments there. There really are no decent hotels in the area. I also don't see it as a matter of either, or. The hotel, which would likely be at the top of the tower, could also have impact on design, allowing for something other than a box top.


At my class at the NYU Real Estate Institute last week, the president of Vornado Realty Trust, Michael Fascitelli, said the company would likely raze the hotel and build an office building that may have a smaller hotel component.

[Alonzo-ny]

I doubt the current crappiness of the area would put off banks coming next to a major station and an area soon to become prime office space.