Port Authority to approve New Goethals Bridge

[STT757]

Port Authority to approve New Goethals Bridge, renderings in the article:

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2008/08/port_authority_proposes_replac.html

Note this piece:


The new bridge also would have space and capacity along its center to for a future mass transit corridor.

PATH train extension to Staten Island via Newark Airport?..

[BrooklynLove]

OOOOO I loooove new bridges. Too bad this one runs between 2 places I try to avoid.

[Zoe]

This is great news! All of those bridges need to be replaced and designing it with mass-transit is the right move

[BrooklynRider]

Why the hell aren't they building the mass transit as part of this project? Would it make sense to simply build a separae bridge for trains?

[unknown memory]

The new bridge also would have space and capacity along its center to for a future mass transit corridor.

Are they going to build a transit line in-between the bridge?

I like the rendering. Just not clear as to where exactly is this "space" since the rendering doesn't show it. Unless, they mean underneath the bridge just like how the GWB is double decker. Hmm.. *sighs* I rarely go through this bridge since it's far from me, but the new design looks very enticing.

I wish they built some kind of transit through GWB or some kind of monorail system. Would really love that.

[stache]

Lots of buses on the GWB. :confused:

[NYatKNIGHT]

Let's show the photos:

http://blog.nj.com/ledgerupdates_impact/2008/08/large_goethals.jpg
An artist rendering of the new Goethals Bridge as seen from the New Jersey Turnpike.

http://blog.nj.com/ledgerupdates_impact/2008/08/medium_goethals2.jpg
An artist rendering of the new Goethals Bridge shows the Cable-Stayed Bridge Concept, at bridge deck.

http://blog.nj.com/ledgerupdates_impact/2008/08/medium_currentbridge.jpg
A current view showing how narrow the bridge is.

They aren't building the mass transit now because there isn't funding for it and there isn't anything to connect it to yet. But designing the bridge to accommodate it is the next best thing. It would be far cheaper to add rail to a bridge that has capacity and strength for it than to build an entirely new bridge.

[unknown memory]

Lots of buses on the GWB. :confused:
Yeah, a lot of buses, trucks (on upper level), and cars. I ride the small shuttle buses into GWB's PA in most of my NYC commute. Yet, I'm finding the train rides pretty good even though, they cost a bit higher in price and are not always on time compared to the shuttle buses. You don't have to worry about being stuck in Rte. 4's traffic.

I think my experience in Japan made me realize how the dependency on trains in that country really help conserve the auto gas. ^^; Or riding an almost empty monorail in Sydney was pretty enjoyable too.

[openheads]

OOOOO I loooove new bridges. Too bad this one runs between 2 places I try to avoid.

Was your oh so clever, narrow minded provincialism really needed????
Why even comment on such a topic if these are "places you try to avoid"???
Why does NYC claim to be the "greatest city on earth" & yet chronically acts like the insecure bully???
I find your mind frame curious. If you are so spectacular, why spend one second of your day thinking about poor little New Jersey???
Either way, I'm sure you will respond with yet another witty remark & then dive right back into the type setting you need to feel good about who you are as a person.

[scumonkey]

nice first post :cool:

[stache]

I thought BL's post was funny. ;)

[openheads]

"Reason: Eliminated the reference to self pleasuring."
That word references a state of mind more than a physical act in modern colloquialism stache.
Just wanted to make that clear. I hope to engage in civilized discourse. I'm not trying to be "that guy".

[openheads]

I thought BL's post was funny. ;)
Of course you would.

[philvia]

ok i thought it was funny too :confused:

i think someone is a little insecure?

[STT757]

Here's a rendering from the Port Authority that shows where the transit line would go:

http://www.panynj.gov/CommutingTravel/bridges/images/goethals_photo_4.jpg

View of the Bridge from Staten Island:

http://www.panynj.gov/CommutingTravel/bridges/images/goethals_photo_1.jpg

[lofter1]

From wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goethals_Bridge) ...

A 3D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_computer_graphics) rendering of the potential replacement bridge

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Goethals_bridge_concept.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Goethals_bridge_concept.png)

[BrooklynLove]

Was your oh so clever, narrow minded provincialism really needed????
Why even comment on such a topic if these are "places you try to avoid"???
Why does NYC claim to be the "greatest city on earth" & yet chronically acts like the insecure bully???
I find your mind frame curious. If you are so spectacular, why spend one second of your day thinking about poor little New Jersey???
Either way, I'm sure you will respond with yet another witty remark & then dive right back into the type setting you need to feel good about who you are as a person.

Settle down spanky. Between me, you and your psychotherapist, you appear to be the one with the insecurities.

[antinimby]

I don't see any space that was supposed to be set aside for mass transit in that overhead rendering.

All I see is a huge gap. :confused:

[stache]

and the posts are in the way of where the trains should be running. :confused:

[Triborough]

At least one proposal for the GWB included a rail option.
Plus, all the East River bridges built before the Triborough had a rail component.
Other bridges throughout the world, including the similar to the current Goethals Bridge, Sydney Harbour Bridge, have rail components.

Probably the most logical option is to extend the NJT Hudson-Bergen line into Staten Island, ideally to the ferry terminal where it can provide a transfer to the SIRT. Although converting the SIRT to light rail wouldn't be a such a bad idea either. Although it would involve changing the third rail unless vehicles were used that used both the third rail and the overhead catenary.

[Optimus Prime]

Why would you convert the SIR to light rail? Heavy rail is better. The only reason to build light rail is if you're building a new line, it is cheaper and requires less space (grade separation not required).

Converting wouldn't make sense.

[Triborough]

Why would you convert the SIR to light rail? Heavy rail is better. The only reason to build light rail is if you're building a new line, it is cheaper and requires less space (grade separation not required).

Converting wouldn't make sense.

Converting it would make it easier to expand it. If you want to have more non-bus public transit on Staten Island it is probably the best option.

However, in an ideal world, hooking the SIRT into the subway system would be the best option.

[stache]

Plus then you wouldn't have to transfer. :cool:

[Optimus Prime]

What's the lifespan of the Verrazano-Narrows? Can't imagine what it will cost to rebuild that monster. But that's probably the soonest you'll see the subway come to SI.

[Triborough]

There was apparently a project to increase the lifespan of the V-N's cables (http://www.kiewit.com/markets/pro_13200021.html) a few years back.

I am guessing that will get some more life out of it.

However, the thing with the Goethals Bridge seems more to be port access than anything else, if I read things right.

[VDiMiceli]

There is already a [defunct] heavy rail passenger line right of way along the North Shore of Staten Island (with platforms and all) that could easily head over the bridge. The rendering shows the Arthur Kill Lift in the background, a single track drawbridge that is used now to transport garbage from a new rail transfer station on the west shore, about four or five miles from the present bridge. It also serves the New York Container Port at Holland Hook on Staten Island.

Any new bridge should consider a link to the Northeast Corridor, giving Islanders a one-seat ride to Manhattan and Newark Airport.

Practically every other county in a 50-mile radius of Manhattan has that.

Once again garbage comes before people on Staten Island.

[Triborough]

Do you know if it is actually a passenger line or not?
Do you have any idea where it goes?

From an operational point of view NJ Transit could run a service, as they do it under contract for some NY portions of two lines out of Hoboken.

[philvia]

i assume this is what he's talking about

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=40.638703,-74.135168&spn=0.003045,0.004828&t=k&z=18

follow it and you can see that it starts about a mile west of the ferry, well at least the track. then crosses the river within 500 feet of goethals bridge and joins with 3 different NJ transit tracks.


you're on to something VDiMiceli ;) right a letter to someone, maybe they didn't realize it?

[VDiMiceli]

It's an old B&O passenger line that was shut down in the early 1950s. For a short period, there was passenger service to Cranford Junction, NJ.

I've walked it all the way to the ferry. There are a number of old platforms that are still in existence, and I've been to stations like Port Richmond, that look like they need minor repairs.

Freight ran on the same line up until the early 1990s. But much of it is in serious disrepair, as it ran along the shore, and the harbor is taking it back. Right now, there is mostly one set of tracks, without a third rail.

The line's western termination was at a station called Arlington, where the newly renovated freight yard is. Actually, brand new tracks begin about 100 feet from the Arlington platform/station.

They also refurbished a spur of the line to Fresh Kills, which used to serve a Con Ed plant, delivering coal. Today, it has been extended to a garbage transfer station beyond the electric plant, and it also serves a recycling plant.

What amazes me is the government laid/refurbished all this infrastructure in under 3 years, but no one considers the possibility of moving people over these lines. Fact is, there is plenty of room for both passenger-only and freight-only tracks.

And the new bridge, with passenger rail, could ensure that the two wouldn't interfere with each other.

[BrooklynLove]

Problem with connecting with the SIR is that the Goethals hits SI at maybe the farthest point on the island from the SIR line, and you're still not even getting train access to Manhattan once connected.

What I really would like to see done with the SIR is introduction of a ferry system the takes the train between St. George and South Ferry. This is done for many water crossings along train lines in Europe.

[Triborough]

The TA already has buses in limited service going over the Goethals to connect with the HBLR, so there is a market.

[jersey_guy]

The TA already has buses in limited service going over the Goethals to connect with the HBLR, so there is a market.

Over the Bayonne Bridge, not Goethals. Goethals in nowhere near HBLR.

[Triborough]

Sorry got my bridges mixed up. Staten Island in is the one part of the city that I really don't know that well.

[stache]

Join the club! ;)

[Bob]

That bridge "design" is silly, unnecessary, and ugly. A simple re-do of the current Goethels design, albeit on a contemporary scale, would suffice and most likely be much cheaper.

[Triborough]

You expect the Port Authority to do the sensible thing?
This is probably someone's legacy project.

[arcman210]

I'm pretty sure the reasoning behind the design for the bridge has to do with land usage. This design will enable them to build the bridge in two phases while keeping the existing span... they would build those towers and one of the two roadways next to the existing bridge... then when the span is complete, shift all four lanes of traffic to the new bridge, demolish the existing Goethals, and build the next roadway in place of the old bridge.

[NYatKNIGHT]

I contacted someone I know who worked on this and asked about the location for a future rail alignment. He said the bridge is being built NOT TO PRECLUDE transit, meaning there is a 30 - 40 foot clearance under the bridge supports between the eastbound and west bound lanes of traffic, that could support a fixed guideway transit service, if and when it becomes needed in the future.

[Triborough]

It would seem to make more sense to build the transit into the bridge since otherwise it probably won't get built.

[stache]

Or at least the floor bed.

[NYatKNIGHT]

It will cost less in the long run to build it now, but how often does that sensibility pan out?

[stache]

There's more money to steal if they do it the other way. ;)

[VDiMiceli]

The Bayonne Bridge was built with a rail option. There is open space on both sides of the roadbed. Of course, it's never been connected to anything, even though the same rail line runs underneath it on the Staten Island side, and there is a right of way (the Hudson Bergen Line) running to it on the Jersey side.

Either way, the Goethals is a better fit, because it would provide a one-seat commute to Manhattan.

But it proves that having the option for rail doesn't mean it will ever get built.

I've heard some heads of the PA don't even know they have the train option available on the Bayonne, or were surprised when they heard Islanders mention it to them.

[antinimby]

How do these people become heads of the PA (and other large organizations) when they're so incompetent?

No vision, no forward thinking, no innovation, no ingenuity and generally just clueless about everything.

That plus what takes us a million years to just talk about, takes other countries a few years to finish.

No wonder this country will be surpassed by other countries in this century if not already. We are on the decline and in serious trouble.

[brianac]

Wider lanes, pedestrian walkway & bike path all part of plan for new Goethals Bridge from S.I.


BY Barbara Ross (http://www.nydailynews.com/authors/Barbara%20Ross)
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Tuesday, February 22nd 2011, 4:00 AM


http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2011/02/22/alg_goethals_bridge_overhead.jpg
Above, an artist's rendition of the new Goethals Bridge. The Port Authority has partnered with a private company to finance the construction.


For the first time in more than 100 years, a private company will build, maintain and put up the money for a major bridge out of New York City (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/New+York+City).


Under the Port Authority's latest solution to the budget crunch, a private-sector company will erect a new Goethals Bridge (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Goethals+Bridge) linking Staten Island (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Staten+Island) to New Jersey (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/New+Jersey) - and the PA will repay the company on a 30-year installment plan.

Experts predict the marriage with the private sector - actually a throwback to 19th century bridge-building - is the wave of the future.


"If this is successful, it could lead to more public-private partnership projects by the Port Authority and to state legislation that would allow more," says Richard Anderson (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Richie+Anderson), president of the New York Building Congress (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/New+York+Building+Congress).


The PA spends most of its building budget on the World Trade Center (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/World+Trade+Center) while the bridge and tunnel tolls and airport fees it collects have diminished with the economic downturn.


Normally, the PA would sell bonds to pay for the bridge. Here, the agency will pay off the $1 billion price tag over 30 years.


The winning private-sector consortium will plunk down at least 10% upfront, then get federal transportation bonds for the rest.


The PA will continue to set and collect the Goethals toll - now $8 for eastbound cars.


"We are buying a bridge, paying for it over a period of time and getting a guaranteed warranty on it," PA spokesman Steve Coleman (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Steve+Coleman) said.


If the winning bidder's performance doesn't meet PA standards, payments will be reduced.


The Goethals project does not involve a sale or lease, and the PA will own the new bridge.


Still, the project has created a buzz in the construction trades and political circles because it's the first major local bridge to be built in more than a century with private- sector money. A noteworthy example of private-sector bridge-building is the Brooklyn Bridge (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Brooklyn+Bridge), constructed by the Roebling family.


State Sen. Charles Fuschillo (R-Nassau) (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Charles+Fuschillo), chairman of the Senate Transportation Committee, said the state's pathetic financial health means "many capital projects are going to need public-private partnerships."


Officials estimate the state needs $250 billion in infrastructure improvements through 2030, and Gov. Cuomo has signaled his support for private-sector help on that.


Last month, state Controller Thomas DiNapoli (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Thomas+DiNapoli) warned of the pitfalls to public-private projects.


"We have to ensure public assets are not squandered and taxpayers are protected," he said.


The PA - a bistate agency - doesn't need a change in the law, but the state would if it wanted to partner with the private sector, Anderson said.
The Goethals has been a festering problem, mostly because it's too small for its daily traffic.


The bridge's four 10-foot-wide lanes are inadequate for modern trucks and there are no shoulders. The new bridge will have six 12-foot-wide lanes, with shoulders.


A new 10-foot-wide pedestrian and bike walkway will grace the north side, and space in the center is set aside for future mass transit options like bus lanes or light rail.


After the new bridge opens in 2017, the old one will come down.


bross@nydailynews.com (bross@nydailynews.com)


EXCLUSIVE
BY BARBARA ROSS (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Barbara+Ross)
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/02/22/2011-02-22_wider_lanes_pedestrian_walkway__bike_path_all_p art_of_plan_for_new_goethals_brid.html#ixzz1EhlSBw tn

[Newarkguy]

Speaking of future mass transit, Ive wondered why was the Staten Island transit abandoned along the north shore? Also why was not a single MTA subway line routed under the Verazano Narrows bridge? If NYC isn't interested in linking SI and Brooklyn by rail, much less SI to Elizabeth, in another state. BUT WAIT! The Port Authority NY NJ!! Perhaps extend the PATH from Newark to EWR(NLIAirport) to Jersey Gardens to Midtown (a reverse move similar to Hoboken stop)Peterstown then over the new Goethals Bridge, continue along the abandoned north shore ROW to the Staten Island Rapid Transit terminal at the SI ferry. Any thoughts?

[Nexis4Jersey]

They don't need to build a New Rail line over the Goethals bridge , there is a Freight Bridge that can be widened to accommodate 2 New Tracks and that could carry the Rail line....hehe stealing my idea and tweaking it eh..... That Reverse commute might not go over that well , what about a North Shore line (Ferry to Midtown) and WTC / Newark - Midtown Elizzy line...

[arcman210]

Tough to riden a frieght bridge. Its a vertical lift bridge and has tracks set for frieght trains and it doesn't run as frequent as a commuter train. The bridge would have to constantly be in the down position which would restrict marine traffic.

Plus, what exactly are we attempting to connect with a rail line? Suburban to suburban? Maybe the airport can be argued but there's not much reason for a rail line at this point in time.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Tough to riden a frieght bridge. Its a vertical lift bridge and has tracks set for frieght trains and it doesn't run as frequent as a commuter train. The bridge would have to constantly be in the down position which would restrict marine traffic.

Plus, what exactly are we attempting to connect with a rail line? Suburban to suburban? Maybe the airport can be argued but there's not much reason for a rail line at this point in time.

The Elizabeth side holds alot of Jobs and is Urban.....Suburban to Suburban...either way were getting alot of cars off the street.....

[Don31]

Tough to riden a frieght bridge. Its a vertical lift bridge and has tracks set for frieght trains and it doesn't run as frequent as a commuter train. The bridge would have to constantly be in the down position which would restrict marine traffic.

Plus, what exactly are we attempting to connect with a rail line? Suburban to suburban? Maybe the airport can be argued but there's not much reason for a rail line at this point in time.

Unless the project has changed since I worked on it, there is supposed to be space set-aside in the median for future mass transit, nothing to be built now.

[arcman210]

I would support it in the future but connecting Elizabeth with Staten Island right now isn't possible. There is no infrastructure for a light rail set up on either side, so including it now wouldn't make sense. One thing I could see is potentially connecting it with the HBLR many years from now if that's extended over the Bayonne Bridge.