Limestone Building in Tribeca

[josh]

Hello,

We are looking to clean our building in TriBeca.

http://tribecaspaces.com/373.JPG

I don't know if you can tell from the photograph, but the limestone had been painted over many many years ago (so in some areas there is paint and in other areas there is the original limestone where paint has peeled off).

We have the option to either
1) power wash, clean and paint over again with a fresh coat

or

2) peal away the paint, clean, power wash and have existing limestone as the exterior (this is more expensive).

What is your recommendation on how to make our building look its best?

Thanks so much.

Josh

(here are a few more photos from another poster on wired ny)

http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3044&d=1163897612

http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3049&d=1163898014

http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3048&d=1163898007

[Fabrizio]

Hats off to you.

I imagine limestone would be much more beautiful. If you go the exposed limestone route you might be spending more, but you have a great story for the press. If positive publicity (and your own satisfaction) is important to you ... do it that way.

Whatever you do, updates and photos as you go along would be of interest here.

[lofter1]

Hi Josh --

I strongly urge you to strip the paint and restore the limestone ...

Limestone is one of the most beautiful materials for a building facade.

In good condition it says to anyone who passes by that "THIS IS A GREAT BUILDING"

Witness some examples:

Empire State Building
Grand Central Terminal
Rockefeller Center
15 Central Park West
And on and on and on ...

Limestone restoration will give you a good return on your investment.

And give you tons of goodwill from your fellow NYers ;)

[Front_Porch]

Congratulations on your new acquisition -- it's a beautiful building.

One more vote for letting the limestone show.

I'm a realtor, so I always think not only about how something will "look" but also what kind of financial returns that "look" might generate -- and I think in this area, restoring the building's facade might translate to greater tenant satisfaction and higher rents in the future.

I would also check in with the department of City Planning if I were you, to see if there's any support available for the restoration of historic facades.

(If this works, send me your friends who are buying in Tribeca.)

Regards,

ali r.
{downtown broker}

[Bob]

Limestone is the best way to go. Spells "class" in so many ways and weathers beautifully. Worth the expense. Go the limestone route.

[DarrylStrawberry]

Limestone, for sure.

[infoshare]

Yes, I would say limestone. I recall reading somewhere that paint on natural stone is not good because the stone can not "breath" ; and can therefore cause spalling problems because the stone retains to much water.


P.S. There was some good inforamation about SPALLING posted here at Wiredny recently - not sure which thread or I would have have linked it for you. Great building, a classic beauty; please post photos of your post-cleaning results.

Cheers..

[BrooklynRider]

I'm going to add my voice to those suggesting restoration of limestone. You have a high-quality material there and it makes little sense, aesthtically or financially, to paint over it. If you had marble or granite walls in your hallways, would you second guess whether to paint or restore?

[NoyokA]

In the long-run I would think it would be most cost-efficient to restore the limestone, intead of removing the old paint and applying new paint on a somewhat regular basis. As already mentioned restoring the limestone will enchance the buildings appearance allowing for higher rents. Its all in all a win-win situation for everyone involved. Lastly, thanks for taking the time and energy to give this some thought, too many things are done hastily in NYC.

[josh]

So we scraped off the paint and cleaned the limestone with some pretty strong chemicals. Problem is: the limestone has some pretty deap stains that we can't get out (see photo below...especially right above the bridge)

the contractor is recommending we paint over with a limestone water repellant glaze that is made for masonry. What are your recommendations? Could we just paint over the stains? Is it better to leave the stains? Should we listen to the contractor?

Does anyone have experice with this?

(also the window trim, i assume it should be the same as the cornice? but please advise if otherwise)


Thanks.

Josh

http://tribecaspaces.com/photo.JPG

[stache]

but if you paint the window trim a little lighter than the stone (but not stark white) it will make the windows pop and the stains on the stone will look less obvious.

[lofter1]

First, BIG Kudos to you for doing the needed work on this building in a way which adds to the nieghborhood.

Bravo!

Second, this is an old building and stains, etc. on the limestone can be labeled "patina" ;) and viewed as signs of "aging well earned" -- they won't necesarily be seen as a negative, particularly once the cornice / windows / trim are painted.

btw: I walked by recently and I think the building looks fantastic -- the cornice is a real beauty.

It seems the prime objective here is to stabilize the facade and get it to the place where there are no leaks / fissures that could cause future damage -- while, at the same time, making the building look as good as possible.

That is where subjectivity comes in.

Is the "glaze" the conractor mentioned clear or does it have colorant?

If there is any color in the "glaze" then I'd say a definite NO to the glaze.

Similarly, if the point of the "glaze" is simply to hide the stains on the limestone then I'd NOT opt for that choice.

If the limestone is stabilized and can be left raw then I would go that route.

Regarding color of trim / cornice: You caould go either with the same on both or contracting.

Here are some pics of nearby buildings that you might want to take a look at.

1) 410 Broadway (just below Canal at Lispenard) -- Note here that there are stains on the stone, but that they don't really detract from the overall beauty of the building. Trim / cornice appears to be painted the same color of medium / dark grey. Classy.

2, 3, 4) 458 Broadway (SE corner at Grand) -- This buff colored brick & terracotta building (similar in hue to limestone) has been cleaned and a brand new cornice (fibreglass?) is being added (where for years there was just a flat brick top). The trim / cornice here are a warm tan. Very nice effect.

5) 309 Canal (north side, corner of Mercer / Howard): This big block-through beauty is mostly made of brick (visible along Mercer & Howard Streets), but has a limestone facade with intricate stone window trim facing Canal. The facade has just been restored and the netting has been coming down this week. Here the trim is painted a contrasting light cream. Seems the same is used for windows -- and shows the contrast to the stone that Stache speaks of in his post above. You can see in the pic that the building next door to the east -- which is identical -- hasn't been restored. That is what this one looked like a few months back.

Keep up the good work and let us know which way you decide to go.

***

[josh]

lofter, thank you for the quick response.

i believe the glaze will have a color to it, but it would match the existing limestone and is made for this sort of situation.

Please clarify, do you think we should leave the limestone as is (as what the latest photo shows)? I feel the stains are very noticable, especially in person, and do not look good.

From the look of it, the photos of the other building you have attached do not have such glaring stains.

You are also correct that there are possibilities of leaks through the limestone. The contractor seconds his thoughts on painting the glaze over the facade as it will act as a water repellant too.

[ZippyTheChimp]

^
I think lofter is going to recommend that you leave it as is.

I'll check it out in person, but from the photo, it shows a fine old building well maintained.

[scumonkey]

I could be wrong but I believe they make a clear sealant for waterproofing stone?
The building looks fine,(good job), nicely painted details WILL deter the eye from those stains....
Why not put the picture into photoshop and try different colours of paint to see how
it looks BEFORE the real deal?!;)

[stache]

Plus if you want to try cleaning it again later, the contractor will have to remove the sealant. I have seen sealants that look semigloss (Flood Bldg., San Francisico) and the result is very bad, like the building was shrink wrapped or dipped in plastic. Beware!

[josh]

so it looks good? the contractor made a big deal out of the stains not coming out and us needing to paint.

so we don't need additional work (besides window trim)?

[Front_Porch]

I'd go with a medium brown paint for the cornice and the trim -- you will have to walk around the neighborhood and look at buildings until you see something similar, because you don't want to make it look like the building has been dipped in chocolate --

I am thinking of something noticeably brown, maybe with a slight orange cast. Something on the order of Benjamin Moore's Maryville Brown, maybe.

I think a brown will make the stains seem more organic and less noticeable than a gray, though I may be wrong. The suggestion to try different colors in photoshop is a good one.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

[stache]

but I see limestone buildings restored all the time that come out immaculate. Does your contractor have a lot of experience with this material?

[londonlawyer]

Hello,

We are looking to clean our building in TriBeca....

http://tribecaspaces.com/373.JPG




Hi, amigo.

Do you know if the building with the horrible 60's facade right next to yours will be razed?

[josh]

but I see limestone buildings restored all the time that come out immaculate. Does your contractor have a lot of experience with this material?

yes. they are well established and this is what they specialize in. the limestone is stained deap inside the masonry not just on the outside. they have used heavy chemicals (basically acid) and the stains are still there.

[ManhattanKnight]

Josh -- sure, ours is the decade of universal teeth bleaching, but what do your guys "specialize" in anyhow? Turning lovely older buildings into nightmare versions of Melville's whale? I'm no stone mason, but limestone+"heavy chemicals (basically acid)" sounds like today's worst-yet idea. Please treat this noble lady with respect and let her live to grace future generations of NYCers!

[Citytect]

I think a very lightly tinted, non-gloss glaze might be a good choice. It doesn't need to completely conceal the stains, only make them less noticeable. A darker glaze might conceal the stains better, but it will also conceal the limestone's natural elegance. I other words, you don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

[londonlawyer]

yes. they are well established and this is what they specialize in. the limestone is stained deap inside the masonry not just on the outside. they have used heavy chemicals (basically acid) and the stains are still there.

Do you know if the dumpy building to the left will be razed?

[ZippyTheChimp]

The thread was opened as a question to a particular problem. Let's not get off topic and discuss the neighborhood.

[josh]

Josh -- sure, ours is the decade of universal teeth bleaching, but what do your guys "specialize" in anyhow? Turning lovely older buildings into nightmare versions of Melville's whale? I'm no stone mason, but limestone+"heavy chemicals (basically acid)" sounds like today's worst-yet idea. Please treat this noble lady with respect and let her live to grace future generations of NYCers!


it's a limestone cleaner, just the most potent to try and get the stains out. nonetheless it failed to work on a test area of the building so we will not be using it on the building.

the question at hand is whether 'this noble lady' looks nice now or if we should add a glaze of paint over the facade to give what the contractor states is a nicer look.

[ZippyTheChimp]

^
The strongest limestone cleaner is hydrochloric acid (sometimes called muriatic acid).

Limestone is mostly calcium carbonate. When mixed with an acid, the reaction produces carbon dioxide and water.

That's how an acid cleaner works, It dissolves the stone that the stain is attached to. It's the last resort after more benign methods to remove the dirt have failed.

Your choices are to leave it as is. or paint/glaze it.

It'll look cleaner if you paint it, but it won't look as distinctive.

[Fabrizio]

Checking email I promised myself: no peeking at WireNY ...but I'm all alone here and no one is looking.

re: the building in Tribeca:

This is Buckingham Palace:

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/04/b5/bb/buckingham-palace-11.jpg

Please note the cornices of the limestone gates. If stains are good enough for Queen Elizabeth then they are good enough for the rest of us.

The Pope got stain too:

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/00/1d/97/27/st-peters-from-the-roof.jpg

Now, you all know that I'd never want to offend anyone BUT to European eyes this is simply weird looking... kitsch, in very bad taste:

http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0213720/ThinkQ/famous_places/CapitolBuilding.jpg

The facade of your building looks wonderful. A good restorer knows what to leave and what to remove. At the MOST he might attempt to remove (or lighten) the big rust stain on the right (or maybe not)... but other than that, after this cleaning, it looks great.

Here they have kept the patina:

http://urie.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/helen_mirren.jpg

Here the patina has been removed, making it look like the day it was built:

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/05_01/faylesplt_468x249.jpg

You choose.

----

As for the building next door: I would like to see that piece of Shinola dustified.


---

[lofter1]

Zippy's right -- I beg you ... no glaze. [ please ;) ]

I've seen that applied to some buildings around town and the shine over limestone is just wrong. And paint / glaze gives a uniform finish which has no life compared to limestone.

Of course restoration of joints / pointing is important. And if there are fissures in the stone which would allow for leakage then that must be attended to.

But I can't imagine how water could penetrate through the limestone -- so I'm not clear as to why an overall glaze would be needed.

I was walking around midtown today after reading your post from this morning -- I was struck when I saw that Rock Center, St. Patricks and any number of other grand and important limestone buildings show stains and discoloration on the stone. Often the stains are near a cornice or beneath window ledges -- and they give a sense of depth to the surface. Its part of what happens to city buildings. Sure, some limestone buildings have been restored and look immaculate -- for awhile.

I urge you to take a stroll around the neighborhood before you make your final choice -- give your neighboring buildings another look. You might be surprised how good yours looks in comparison, even now before the final touches.

Your building has good bones. It's not a show off or a dazzler. But now that the limestone has been cleaned and restored I'd choose a nice low-key complimentary color for the cornice / windows and then paint just that.

At least that's what I advise -- since you asked :cool:

[lofter1]

And, Josh, you need to know that Fabrizio is now on vacation -- he's gone cold turkey, swore himself to no posting for almost two weeks -- and posted that especially for you!

(ciao, Fab -- buon natale!)

[macreator]

While I do notice the stains a bit on the limestone facade, my first reaction is "wow, I love that restored limestone". It's true -- limestone just screams elegant, even if it has some stains. It really takes me a little while to notice the stains. I think a nice paint job of the window trimmings and the cornice would easily distract the eye from the stains. And ultimately, the stains really aren't too bad. Another thing that would distract from the stains -- but cost some money -- would be brand new windows and frames. New panes and frames would scream "this is a restored building".

[londonlawyer]

The thread was opened as a question to a particular problem. Let's not get off topic and discuss the neighborhood.

I had read that the two building to the south of the this one are owned by the same person who owns this one and are being redeveloped jointly. Since this guy claims to own the building, I'm simply asking about his plans.

[MidtownGuy]

I was struck when I saw that Rock Center, St. Patricks and any number of other grand and important limestone buildings show stains and discoloration on the stone. Often the stains are near a cornice or beneath window ledges -- and they give a sense of depth to the surface.

Walfdorf's facade is downright filthy, looks like it's been dragged through charcoal. I like a nice patina as well as the next guy, but the Waldorf really could use a cleaning.

[macreator]

Walfdorf's facade is downright filthy, looks like it's been dragged through charcoal. I like a nice patina as well as the next guy, but the Waldorf really could use a cleaning.

This is true. I'm always amazed when I see a high profile building with an extremely dirty facade. You'd think the Waldorf of all places could afford some powerwashing.

[lofter1]

I had read that the two building to the south of the this one are owned by the same person who owns this one and are being redeveloped jointly. Since this guy claims to own the building, I'm simply asking about his plans.

Different owner here at 373-375 Broadway --

THREAD for those two (369 - 371 Broadway) HERE (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11517)

(we talked about them backHERE (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=133382&postcount=8) ;) )

[londonlawyer]

I thought that all three of these buildings were jointly owned:

http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3043&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1163897592http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3043&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1163897592

[stache]

That doesn't appear to be the case, according to the thread lofter highlighted in post # 35 of this thread. Or you could PM josh about it.

[josh]

we will probably have to make a decision in the next few days (as it is expensive to wait).

any further input is appreciated.

also, the risk of not putting a water repellant is a concern. it is unknown where or if there is a water leakage issue, but it is in our interest to protect from water damage now while the scaffolding is in place.

[lofter1]

If you find the need to go with a water-repellant glaze then I would suggest that it have as little gloss and as little color as possible.

I still wonder if your contractor might not be selling you a bill of goods in regards to the necessity of a glaze for limestone.

THIS WEBSITE (http://www.baneclene.com/catalog/hd-Exterior.html) has some info on a product, but in regards to Limestone (http://www.baneclene.com/stonetech.html#limestone) it focuses more on floors than facades.

[ManhattanKnight]

Josh -- I realize that it's probably unhelpful for you at this late date to be posting a link to sources of basic info and help with (stone) restoration/conservation projects, but I'm going to post just THIS ONE (http://www.hdc.org/preservingother.htm) (from the Historic Districts Council) with the hope that later readers of this thread may find something of value there.

Good luck, and please let us know how your project turns out.

[josh]

it appears we willl put waterproofing over the limestone.

Do you have a specific type of glaze/paint that you recommend?

[stache]

Try sending a PM to ablarc.

[ablarc]

ablarc's clients can't afford limestone.

[stache]

Sorry I dumped that one in your lap!

[ablarc]

It's OK, I didn't know the answer.

[ZippyTheChimp]

I hope the "waterproofing" used doesn't cut off the limestone from the air.

The contractor should use something like a silicate mineral paint, also called waterglass.

http://www.chemie.de/lexikon/e/Silicate_mineral_paint

http://www.edisoncoatings.com/html/Potassium_Silicate_Masonry_Pai/potassium_silicate_masonry_pai.html

[josh]

BEFORE

http://www.tribecaspaces.com/photos/373before.JPG


AFTER


http://www.tribecaspaces.com/photos/373Feb08.JPG

[scumonkey]

nicely done...Bravo!;)

[lofter1]

Looks good ...

And it's amazing what removing some AC units from the windows will do for the look of an old building :cool:

[MidtownGuy]

Very nice Josh, thanks for sharing that with us.:)

[stache]

You get the Wired NY seal of approval! :)

[infoshare]

Hi Josh, good to see the final result: Big Improvement.

P.S. As you may recall I came out to see your other property in Tribecca recently: feel free to send me a PM if you still need any info on that (or any other) project.

[lofter1]

CURBED reports that this one (at right, below) is about to get something new next door (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=216826&postcount=29) ...

Awesome Architecture Alert: Broadway Getting Berkel'd

http://curbed.com/uploads/2008_2_berkel1.jpg

The Dutch built up this crazy little island, and now they're coming back to
add a touch of the avant-garde. Ben van Berkel, one of the principal
architects behind the UNStudio (http://www.unstudio.com/) design firm —whose work upstate was sadly
destroyed by fire (http://archrecord.construction.com/news/daily/archives/080212unstudio.asp) recently—is designing his first condo building in America,
and it's landing at 5 Franklin Place. Franklin whatnow? Franklin Place is a
one-block alley that connects Franklin and White Streets, half a block west
of Broadway and a few blocks below Canal Street. Yes, the residents'
entrance will be in an alley, which immediately makes this the most awesome
thing ever. Those twin five-story buildings seen above, at 369-371
Broadway, are what sit on the lot now ...