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ablarc
August 6th, 2007, 09:20 PM
This a lengthy article. For those who wish to skim I've boldfaced the main points. Red is for those in a really big hurry.


The downside of diversity

A Harvard political scientist finds that diversity hurts civic life. What happens when a liberal scholar unearths an inconvenient truth?

By Michael Jonas | August 5, 2007


It has become increasingly popular to speak of racial and ethnic diversity as a civic strength. From multicultural festivals to pronouncements from political leaders, the message is the same: our differences make us stronger.

But a massive new study, based on detailed interviews of nearly 30,000 people across America, has concluded just the opposite. Harvard political scientist Robert Putnam -- famous for "Bowling Alone," his 2000 book on declining civic engagement -- has found that the greater the diversity in a community, the fewer people vote and the less they volunteer, the less they give to charity and work on community projects. In the most diverse communities, neighbors trust one another about half as much as they do in the most homogenous settings. The study, the largest ever on civic engagement in America, found that virtually all measures of civic health are lower in more diverse settings.

"The extent of the effect is shocking," says Scott Page, a University of Michigan political scientist.

The study comes at a time when the future of the American melting pot is the focus of intense political debate, from immigration to race-based admissions to schools, and it poses challenges to advocates on all sides of the issues. The study is already being cited by some conservatives as proof of the harm large-scale immigration causes to the nation's social fabric. But with demographic trends already pushing the nation inexorably toward greater diversity, the real question may yet lie ahead: how to handle the unsettling social changes that Putnam's research predicts.

"We can't ignore the findings," says Ali Noorani, executive director of the Massachusetts Immigrant and Refugee Advocacy Coalition. "The big question we have to ask ourselves is, what do we do about it; what are the next steps?"

The study is part of a fascinating new portrait of diversity emerging from recent scholarship. Diversity, it shows, makes us uncomfortable -- but discomfort, it turns out, isn't always a bad thing. Unease with differences helps explain why teams of engineers from different cultures may be ideally suited to solve a vexing problem. Culture clashes can produce a dynamic give-and-take, generating a solution that may have eluded a group of people with more similar backgrounds and approaches. At the same time, though, Putnam's work adds to a growing body of research indicating that more diverse populations seem to extend themselves less on behalf of collective needs and goals.

His findings on the downsides of diversity have also posed a challenge for Putnam, a liberal academic whose own values put him squarely in the pro-diversity camp. Suddenly finding himself the bearer of bad news, Putnam has struggled with how to present his work. He gathered the initial raw data in 2000 and issued a press release the following year outlining the results. He then spent several years testing other possible explanations.

When he finally published a detailed scholarly analysis in June in the journal Scandinavian Political Studies, he faced criticism for straying from data into advocacy. His paper argues strongly that the negative effects of diversity can be remedied, and says history suggests that ethnic diversity may eventually fade as a sharp line of social demarcation.

"Having aligned himself with the central planners intent on sustaining such social engineering, Putnam concludes the facts with a stern pep talk," wrote conservative commentator Ilana Mercer, in a recent Orange County Register op-ed titled "Greater diversity equals more misery."

Putnam has long staked out ground as both a researcher and a civic player, someone willing to describe social problems and then have a hand in addressing them. He says social science should be "simultaneously rigorous and relevant," meeting high research standards while also "speaking to concerns of our fellow citizens." But on a topic as charged as ethnicity and race, Putnam worries that many people hear only what they want to.

"It would be unfortunate if a politically correct progressivism were to deny the reality of the challenge to social solidarity posed by diversity," he writes in the new report. "It would be equally unfortunate if an ahistorical and ethnocentric conservatism were to deny that addressing that challenge is both feasible and desirable."

. . .

Putnam is the nation's premier guru of civic engagement. After studying civic life in Italy in the 1970s and 1980s, Putnam turned his attention to the US, publishing an influential journal article on civic engagement in 1995 that he expanded five years later into the best-selling "Bowling Alone." The book sounded a national wake-up call on what Putnam called a sharp drop in civic connections among Americans. It won him audiences with presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, and made him one of the country's best known social scientists.

Putnam claims the US has experienced a pronounced decline in "social capital," a term he helped popularize. Social capital refers to the social networks -- whether friendships or religious congregations or neighborhood associations -- that he says are key indicators of civic well-being. When social capital is high, says Putnam, communities are better places to live. Neighborhoods are safer; people are healthier; and more citizens vote.

The results of his new study come from a survey Putnam directed among residents in 41 US communities, including Boston. Residents were sorted into the four principal categories used by the US Census: black, white, Hispanic, and Asian. They were asked how much they trusted their neighbors and those of each racial category, and questioned about a long list of civic attitudes and practices, including their views on local government, their involvement in community projects, and their friendships. What emerged in more diverse communities was a bleak picture of civic desolation, affecting everything from political engagement to the state of social ties.

Putnam knew he had provocative findings on his hands. He worried about coming under some of the same liberal attacks that greeted Daniel Patrick Moynihan's landmark 1965 report on the social costs associated with the breakdown of the black family. There is always the risk of being pilloried as the bearer of "an inconvenient truth," says Putnam.

After releasing the initial results in 2001, Putnam says he spent time "kicking the tires really hard" to be sure the study had it right. Putnam realized, for instance, that more diverse communities tended to be larger, have greater income ranges, higher crime rates, and more mobility among their residents -- all factors that could depress social capital independent of any impact ethnic diversity might have.

"People would say, 'I bet you forgot about X,'" Putnam says of the string of suggestions from colleagues. "There were 20 or 30 X's."

But even after statistically taking them all into account, the connection remained strong: Higher diversity meant lower social capital. In his findings, Putnam writes that those in more diverse communities tend to "distrust their neighbors, regardless of the color of their skin, to withdraw even from close friends, to expect the worst from their community and its leaders, to volunteer less, give less to charity and work on community projects less often, to register to vote less, to agitate for social reform more but have less faith that they can actually make a difference, and to huddle unhappily in front of the television."

"People living in ethnically diverse settings appear to 'hunker down' -- that is, to pull in like a turtle," Putnam writes.

In documenting that hunkering down, Putnam challenged the two dominant schools of thought on ethnic and racial diversity, the "contact" theory and the "conflict" theory. Under the contact theory, more time spent with those of other backgrounds leads to greater understanding and harmony between groups. Under the conflict theory, that proximity produces tension and discord.

Putnam's findings reject both theories. In more diverse communities, he says, there were neither great bonds formed across group lines nor heightened ethnic tensions, but a general civic malaise. And in perhaps the most surprising result of all, levels of trust were not only lower between groups in more diverse settings, but even among members of the same group.

"Diversity, at least in the short run," he writes, "seems to bring out the turtle in all of us."

The overall findings may be jarring during a time when it's become commonplace to sing the praises of diverse communities, but researchers in the field say they shouldn't be.

"It's an important addition to a growing body of evidence on the challenges created by diversity," says Harvard economist Edward Glaeser.

In a recent study, Glaeser and colleague Alberto Alesina demonstrated that roughly half the difference in social welfare spending between the US and Europe -- Europe spends far more -- can be attributed to the greater ethnic diversity of the US population. Glaeser says lower national social welfare spending in the US is a "macro" version of the decreased civic engagement Putnam found in more diverse communities within the country.

Economists Matthew Kahn of UCLA and Dora Costa of MIT reviewed 15 recent studies in a 2003 paper, all of which linked diversity with lower levels of social capital. Greater ethnic diversity was linked, for example, to lower school funding, census response rates, and trust in others. Kahn and Costa's own research documented higher desertion rates in the Civil War among Union Army soldiers serving in companies whose soldiers varied more by age, occupation, and birthplace.

Birds of different feathers may sometimes flock together, but they are also less likely to look out for one another. "Everyone is a little self-conscious that this is not politically correct stuff," says Kahn.

. . .

So how to explain New York, London, Rio de Janiero, Los Angeles -- the great melting-pot cities that drive the world's creative and financial economies?

The image of civic lassitude dragging down more diverse communities is at odds with the vigor often associated with urban centers, where ethnic diversity is greatest. It turns out there is a flip side to the discomfort diversity can cause. If ethnic diversity, at least in the short run, is a liability for social connectedness, a parallel line of emerging research suggests it can be a big asset when it comes to driving productivity and innovation. In high-skill workplace settings, says Scott Page, the University of Michigan political scientist, the different ways of thinking among people from different cultures can be a boon.

"Because they see the world and think about the world differently than you, that's challenging," says Page, author of "The Difference: How the Power of Diversity Creates Better Groups, Firms, Schools, and Societies." "But by hanging out with people different than you, you're likely to get more insights. Diverse teams tend to be more productive."

In other words, those in more diverse communities may do more bowling alone, but the creative tensions unleashed by those differences in the workplace may vault those same places to the cutting edge of the economy and of creative culture.

Page calls it the "diversity paradox." He thinks the contrasting positive and negative effects of diversity can coexist in communities, but "there's got to be a limit." If civic engagement falls off too far, he says, it's easy to imagine the positive effects of diversity beginning to wane as well. "That's what's unsettling about his findings," Page says of Putnam's new work.

Meanwhile, by drawing a portrait of civic engagement in which more homogeneous communities seem much healthier, some of Putnam's worst fears about how his results could be used have been realized. A stream of conservative commentary has begun -- from places like the Manhattan Institute and "The American Conservative" -- highlighting the harm the study suggests will come from large-scale immigration. But Putnam says he's also received hundreds of complimentary emails laced with bigoted language. "It certainly is not pleasant when David Duke's website hails me as the guy who found out racism is good," he says.

In the final quarter of his paper, Putnam puts the diversity challenge in a broader context by describing how social identity can change over time. Experience shows that social divisions can eventually give way to "more encompassing identities" that create a "new, more capacious sense of 'we,'" he writes.

Growing up in the 1950s in small Midwestern town, Putnam knew the religion of virtually every member of his high school graduating class because, he says, such information was crucial to the question of "who was a possible mate or date." The importance of marrying within one's faith, he says, has largely faded since then, at least among many mainline Protestants, Catholics, and Jews.

While acknowledging that racial and ethnic divisions may prove more stubborn, Putnam argues that such examples bode well for the long-term prospects for social capital in a multiethnic America.

In his paper, Putnam cites the work done by Page and others, and uses it to help frame his conclusion that increasing diversity in America is not only inevitable, but ultimately valuable and enriching. As for smoothing over the divisions that hinder civic engagement, Putnam argues that Americans can help that process along through targeted efforts. He suggests expanding support for English-language instruction and investing in community centers and other places that allow for "meaningful interaction across ethnic lines."

Some critics have found his prescriptions underwhelming. And in offering ideas for mitigating his findings, Putnam has drawn scorn for stepping out of the role of dispassionate researcher. "You're just supposed to tell your peers what you found," says John Leo, senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, a conservative think tank. "I don't expect academics to fret about these matters."

But fretting about the state of American civic health is exactly what Putnam has spent more than a decade doing. While continuing to research questions involving social capital, he has directed the Saguaro Seminar, a project he started at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government that promotes efforts throughout the country to increase civic connections in communities.

"Social scientists are both scientists and citizens," says Alan Wolfe, director of the Boisi Center for Religion and American Public Life at Boston College, who sees nothing wrong in Putnam's efforts to affect some of the phenomena he studies.

Wolfe says what is unusual is that Putnam has published findings as a social scientist that are not the ones he would have wished for as a civic leader. There are plenty of social scientists, says Wolfe, who never produce research results at odds with their own worldview.

"The problem too often," says Wolfe, "is people are never uncomfortable about their findings."


--The Boston Globe, Ideas section.

.

Front_Porch
August 8th, 2007, 11:11 AM
Wow, this is just heartbreaking.

ZippyTheChimp
August 8th, 2007, 01:00 PM
Ironic how the article concerns a struggle to maintain objectivity in the face of uncomfortable data, and the posting of the article is a lesson in itself:


"It would be unfortunate if a politically correct progressivism were to deny the reality of the challenge to social solidarity posed by diversity," he writes in the new report. "It would be equally unfortunate if an ahistorical and ethnocentric conservatism were to deny that addressing that challenge is both feasible and desirable."

Thanks for highlighting the important points for all us busy people.

Jasonik
August 8th, 2007, 03:52 PM
This is not a surprise to me insofar as stressing, promoting and aggrandizing peoples' differences based on cultural heritage, racial makeup, and class distinction while simultaneously encouraging/mandating the sorted blending of people based on these distinctions and in parallel promote special interest/special treatment policies that favor one group over another can only be divisive.

'Identify and treat others differently according to their differences.'

or more politically correct

'Identify and treat others differently according to their differences so that their diversity is respected.'

With mottos like 'tolerance and diversity' why can't everyone find 'common ground' and have a dialectic, - I mean 'dialogue?'


"It would be unfortunate if a politically correct progressivism were to deny the reality of the challenge to social solidarity posed by diversity," he writes in the new report. "It would be equally unfortunate if an ahistorical and ethnocentric conservatism were to deny that addressing that challenge is both feasible and desirable."
Sounds like we're being groomed for a marxist revolution. Considering everyone is equally dissatisfied with the status quo, we're almost there.

'Social solidarity' seems a suspect goal when civic disenchantment is the problem. Pandering to special interests to try to cause this 'solidarity' is a fallacy and the cause both directly and indirectly of the lamented outcomes.

kliq6
August 8th, 2007, 04:06 PM
many in America today would ask, whats the upside to diversity, as seen in the latest immigration debate

ablarc
August 10th, 2007, 10:07 PM
Sounds like we're being groomed for a marxist revolution. Considering everyone is equally dissatisfied with the status quo, we're almost there.
? Explain this. ^

Jasonik
January 8th, 2009, 02:20 PM
^
I may write something about this (http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?p=266101#post266101) soon ablarc.

*****

A piece that made me think of this thread:


America, Land of Opportunity

by Don Cooper | January 8, 2009 (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig9/cooper2.html)

These hard economic times have affected us all. That’s why I decided now was the time to make a career change. So I began applying for jobs that may not have paid as well as previous jobs but rather were jobs that I knew I would enjoy.

You can do this in America, I thought to myself. Of all the countries I have lived in, the U.S. is truly the land of opportunity. Especially for a white male!

First stop: Hooters. I’d always loved the atmosphere at Hooters. Men drinking beer, eating chicken wings and watching sports. HooAaa! If I could spend my days mingling with those guys I’d be a happy camper. Unfortunately I was told that I have to be a woman to wait tables at Hooters.

Next stop: Black Entertainment Television (BET). I always wanted to be on television. Unfortunately, I was told that they limited the number of white people appearing on BET.

Next stop: the LPGA tour. I’d seen several women playing on the PGA tour so certainly men could play on the women’s tour. Unfortunately, I was told that men are not permitted to compete on the LPGA tour.

Next stop: a job at the V.A. but they gave it to a veteran

Next stop: a job at Good Will Industries but they gave it to a handicapped person.

Next stop: a job at a Muslim mosque but I was told I’d have to convert to Islam.

Finally I realized that I would only be able to make a career change if I were to do it myself. To invest my own money and time and effort into starting a new business. So I decided to invest my life’s savings and open up my own business: a Hebrew Fitness Center catering to the wealthy Jewish retirees in south Florida. Certainly a very rich and untapped market.

So I had to hire fitness trainers.

First applicant was a young Jewish white girl who unfortunately was grossly overweight. Certainly not the image a fitness center wants to present. I had to turn her down.

Second was a young, white, Muslim fellow who informed me that if hired would need to pray 5 times a day. Unfortunately, I felt that, that kind of possible tension in my fitness center could be detrimental to business. I had to turn him down.

Then a handsome, fit, young black man who seemed perfect for the job except he had no experience as a fitness trainer. I had to turn him down.

In the end I had to close my yet to open Jewish Fitness Center in order to concentrate all my time and money on:

The lawsuit brought by the overweight white girl for sexual discrimination
The lawsuit brought by the Muslim man for religious discrimination
The lawsuit brought by the black man with no experience for racial discrimination

Eventually, all my savings were gone as was my home and I had to move into a homeless shelter. Nonetheless, I realized that no matter how bad things get, at least I can be thankful that I live in a country where the government doesn’t control your life!

Copyright © 2009 LewRockwell.com

Ninjahedge
January 8th, 2009, 02:55 PM
Funny thing? I just saw three people walking down 42nd outside the marriot with promotional shirts. they looked like they were pushing a fitness club/program/product.

The phrase in bold was something like "Want thin?" or something similar.

You guessed it. One of the ladies was about 30-40 pounds overweight. Now I can understand the whole "equal opportunity" thing, but when you are going for an image, you should not be forced to hire someone that will not work.


When they start hiring Ugly models on a regular basis to push things like cars, boats or Poppinfresh Muffins, let me know!

Gregory Tenenbaum
January 15th, 2009, 12:44 PM
Live in a truly monocultural environment, like some parts of Europe, Japan, Korea, parts of China and Asia and see how long it takes for you to go mad.

Diversity is good.

Nuff said.

Alonzo-ny
January 15th, 2009, 12:48 PM
Try parts of America first, its closer. Everywhere has monoculture to some degree. Even parts of NYC.

Gregory Tenenbaum
January 15th, 2009, 04:24 PM
Yeah, because parts of New York are just like Japan.

Because people of the same gene pool in New York have been living on Manhattan island since the ice age just like the Japanese, and make up 99.9% of its population.

Repeat and rinse for Korea, parts of the RF, Eastern Europe etc

Err, no. Not even the ethnic enclaves of NY are like that.

Fabrizio
January 15th, 2009, 04:49 PM
It just funny that some lament the loss of Little Italy (for instance) but then champion cultural diversity.

Why is that?

---

There was a wonderful area of Florence, the San Lorenzo district that up until just a few years ago was filled with old and dependable tuscan trattorie, all kinds of great food stores selling local products, tradition craftsman studios and shops etc. selling things Florence has always been famous for: leather goods, ceramics, fine linens etc. The area was just so .... Florentine.

Today the area is a mix of races and lanquages... lots of Chinese take-out, Chinese-made discount clothing stores, kebab, Pakistani owned grocery, stores selling exotic food, a few African shops selling food and gift items ... and on and on. Most of those quintessentially Florentine businesses have left.

For me ... the area is now the height of banality. It was interesting before... now it is a scene we see everywhere.

Cutural diversity is often overrated. What I love most about my town is that it is still so Italian, so Tuscan... and City Hall has even taken measure to block ethnic restaurants, Chinese take-out, Kebab places and so forth in the center of town.

I love big cities with their mix of everthing.... but my town is still an enclave that celebrates it's specific culture.

Nothing wrong with that.

---

Jasonik
January 15th, 2009, 05:11 PM
I sniff at your antiquated and arrogant provincialism. And shame on you for your lack of conservation of threatened local heritage. ;)

Fabrizio
January 15th, 2009, 05:15 PM
Sniff away.

Jasonik
January 15th, 2009, 05:45 PM
I'm sniffing, but curry is no substitute for Florentine leather...

Ninjahedge
January 15th, 2009, 06:05 PM
There is always a balance.

Diversity should never drive away the "locals". Unfortunately, few places ever have a balance between local heritage and foreign influence. One drives the other out or keeps the other from gaining a foothold.

The problem seems to be that locals do not like to spend money. I am being harsh, but that seems to be the key.

The frugality may be two fold. The first is that the trend setters coming into an area like the East Village have, and do, spend a lot more than who wa sthere before them. They want to use money to take the novelty they find and make it comfortable enough for them to live in.

Second is just plain frugality. As much as everyone decries WalMart, I guarantee you most peopel in NYC would shop there, in sunglasses and an overcoat, to save money over Amish Market when looking for their daily needs.

And that 1-2 zaps the locals, who may get some buisness from people, but more people will go to Starbucks than to a genuine Italian cafe in Manhattan. Strangers will stick with what they know. People might get a good pair of dress shoes from the Italian Cobbler, but they will not get their daily shos from them. Off to Wal Mart! And w/o that daily purchasing, many cannot make enoug hto stick around.



Combine the 1-2 with 3. The fact that once people start moving in, all the locals do like we do. "It's not the same anymore" yadda yadda yadda.

While some of this has merit, removing a dry-cleaner for a curry shop might be great to most. But some will lament Sal being forced out of the city and what a great loss that tailor/cleaner will be to the community.



It is very easy to go one way or another, but keeping history and welcoming change has never been easy. Why do you think there are so few places that have done that?

Alonzo-ny
January 15th, 2009, 06:09 PM
Are there any?

Fabrizio
January 15th, 2009, 06:48 PM
Italy does have towns that have managed to preserve mono-culturalism. Often very stubbornly so. (and it's wonderful)

Ninjahedge
January 16th, 2009, 10:13 AM
Are there any?

I liked Barcelona, but that may not be the best example from my lack of knowledge of its roots. The main square is very modernized and tehy do go out of tehir way for the tourists, but the side streets still have a lot of little hideaways.....

Fabrizio
January 27th, 2009, 05:02 AM
Today the papers here are all reporting about a new ordinance also passed in the city of Lucca. With-in the walled center, all ethnic restaurants are now banned.

I'm posting an article from the major daily "La Repubblica" it's in Italian, but the headline translates easily:

http://www.repubblica.it/2009/01/sezioni/cronaca/lucca-etnico/lucca-etnico/lucca-etnico.html

----

Brigadoon:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v33/ronaldo/433997317_1161ebaecc.jpg

Jasonik
February 24th, 2009, 11:12 AM
Malcolm Gladwell: What we can learn from spaghetti sauce [17:30] (http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/malcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce.html)

eddhead
February 24th, 2009, 01:14 PM
Great, thought provoking clip.

Not withstanding the ill-conceived conclusions regarding the pursuit of "Universal Principles of Food" I consider the value of diversity here, in the US to be much different than that in a more culturally-rich Europe.

With the possible exception of more trendy pop-culture, citizens of the US are probably less attached to inherent US culture characteristics because ... well ... there are none. More than any country in the world, we are a country of immigrants and as such our culture reflects that of the countries from which our family emigrated. This in turn SHOULD create a greater tolerance for diversity and in fact does on the coasts and great harbor ports where immigration is most dynamic.

In contrast, countries like Italy, France, and Spain have richer indigenous cultures which have been formulated over thousands of years. There is a stronger cultural indentity in those countries which is reflected in the association of culture to National pride and in turn a resistance to diversity.

Jasonik
February 24th, 2009, 02:38 PM
I agree.

One noteworthy thing was how sauce was perceived as separate and distinct from the pasta -- only to meet in the diner's dish -- rather than married in the pan. Is this insensitivity based on a deep puritanical defect -- an aversion to intimate comingling? An unhealthy artifact of a rigorous scientific lens which seeks to know things in isolation rather than context?

Though very conscious of a type of analytical bias, Gladwell is conspicuously blind to wider implications of these hidden assumptions.

Cultural ignorance and insensitivity are in large measure the cause of unappreciated diversity.

Ninjahedge
February 24th, 2009, 03:59 PM
Sauce just tastes better when freshly applied (in most instances).

Similar to how something tastes saltier with a little salt on top than dumping it in the mix, sauce follows similar rules.

It also is better (in most cases) when applied later to prevent the pasta from getting mushy from absorbing the extra liquid, etc etc....

Sorry if I have not seen the vid, blocked here at work. I partly agree with the whole "heritage" bent, but I disagree with the leaning of certain municipalities to forbid any other influence. Protection and buffering is important to prevent Ikea, Home Depot, KFC and Starbucks from taking over your landscape, but you should not be so paranoid as to outlaw Falafel in Italy......

Fabrizio
February 24th, 2009, 04:32 PM
Fun FAQS:

Pasta in Italy is usually quickly tossed together with sauce in the pan.

And usually in the same pan that the sauce has been made in.

This allows the sauce to bind a bit with the pasta. The wetness of the drained pasta holds starch and as it cooks over the flame it reduces a bit and helps with the binding.

Pasta in Italy is served from pan to plate... not from a bowl with sauce plopped on top.

Worth noting: 90% of the pasta sauces in Italy are made in the same time it takes to boil the pasta water and cook the pasta... or there abouts.

And: sauce in Italy works more like a dressing on salad... in other words the pasta is lightly coated but not swimming in sauce.

But if you are not in Italy: do as you please...

---

eddhead
February 24th, 2009, 04:59 PM
@ Fab

Completely agree and the effect is a fresher, more al fresco flavor on the palate. I cannot help but wonder if this is a byproduct of fresher ingredients ... it is much subtler and a little goes a long way. In contrast we do produce on steroids in the states...looks good but lacks flavor, so we mask it by cooking it longer, making it thicker, and applying it more heavily.

Fabrizio
February 24th, 2009, 05:19 PM
Italy has a different relationship to pasta... it's own culture regarding pasta.

Food culture here springs from poverty and frugality... not abundance and luxury. That is the key.

And food is eaten fresh if you don't have refridgeration... or it is cured for storage and becomes prosciutto, parmesano and etc..... again: poverty.

Even if today's Italy has little to do with the poverty of the past... that poverty, closeness to the land, that agrarian society, has shaped it's food culture.

And so a dish of pasta for me has a different meaning than it will for you. Just as rice will have a different meaning and customs for the Chinese.

--

Ninjahedge
February 25th, 2009, 11:08 AM
Fun FAQS:

Pasta in Italy is usually quickly tossed together with sauce in the pan.

And usually in the same pan that the sauce has been made in.

This allows the sauce to bind a bit with the pasta. The wetness of the drained pasta holds starch and as it cooks over the flame it reduces a bit and helps with the binding.

Pasta in Italy is served from pan to plate... not from a bowl with sauce plopped on top.

Worth noting: 90% of the pasta sauces in Italy are made in the same time it takes to boil the pasta water and cook the pasta... or there abouts.

And: sauce in Italy works more like a dressing on salad... in other words the pasta is lightly coated but not swimming in sauce.

But if you are not in Italy: do as you please...

---

Is that all of Italy, or certain regions, because I have seen both.

Although the sauce ratio IS something I have seen in all cases.

Most of the things like a classical Marinara have been served, by many an Italian in-law, friend, restaurant and other, on top. Many others like a wite wine basil and olive oil sauce have been just as you have described it. A coating for the pasta.

Is this an Americanization, the MODERATE application of sauce on top? Or is it more of a general application of what was used on a few Italian sauces to encompass all of them due to our own international culinary ignorance?

Ninjahedge
February 25th, 2009, 11:17 AM
Oh, one other thing....

Marinara. I have seen THAT sauce cooking all day. Something about it just tastes better.... I don't know.

I also remember seeing people use the big old pot and making a months supply all at once, or one restaurant where the guy used an old 2x4 (size wise) to stir the large pot on the stove...

Granted I have not seen an alfredo sauce made that way, but are there some that were made to be stored a bit longer or used for large events?

Fabrizio
February 25th, 2009, 12:00 PM
Forget about what you have seen in the US even by Italian-Americans. Italian-American cooking is it's own cuisine and it can be very nice but it is different.

Marinara sauce: "marinara" means of the sea... and here it is usualy a simple tomato sauce with anchovy. It can also be without anchovy but marinara flavourings would be: oregano, cappers, parsley, garlic, white wine. It would be simple and fresh... done in 5-10 minutes with fresh tomato in season or with canned tomato ... maybe 20 minutes.

Alfredo sauce: "alfredo sauce" does not exist in Italy. it's an American name for a cream sauce. Cream reduces in maybe 10 minutes circa.

The ONLY sauces that require long cooking times are some meat sauces... traditional "ragù bolognese" is cooked for even 3 hours at a very low flame. The Tuscan version in an hour or so.

A simple tomato sauce can be done in minutes with fresh tomato in the summer time.... to 30 minutes or so with canned tomato.

In Italy you have to remember that pasta is usually not thought of as a meal (although it often is eaten that way) it is thought of as the prelude to a meal... portions are small 80-100 gr. and not laden with sauce. In parts of the south of Italy, pasta is often a heartier dish with more sauce but it is very specific to that area and not diffuse in the rest of Italy.

--

Ninjahedge
February 25th, 2009, 12:38 PM
The ONLY sauces that require long cooking times are some meat sauces... traditional "ragù bolognese" is cooked for even 3 hours at a very low flame. The Tuscan version in an hour or so.


That is more of what I was thinking.

"Marinara" has been bastardized here in the states to mean almost any non-meat tomato sauce... my bad!

The tomato sauces you are talking about sound more "bright" and seasonal. (I am getting hungry... Lunch Time!!). I almost thinkof those sauces as being more "garden style" than "sauces" per se.... (although, literally, they are BOTH sauces!).

Depending on the use for the pasta, as you have inferred, the sauce differs I guess. You don't necessarily want a light olive oil sauce to be your main dish.... Lost in Translation I guess!!! :D

eddhead
February 25th, 2009, 02:33 PM
In my family, marinara is 30 minutes, fish sauces are about the same, and meat ragus (or as my grandma would say 'gravy') is between 1.5 and 3 hours, and normally cooked on a Sunday Morning. I remember waking up to the smell of the 'gravy' cooking when I was a kid. What a great memory.

And Pasta was never the main dish when I was growing up. On Sundays, it was usually followed by a Roast and the Ssuce meat (meatballs, sausage, etc...) as well as vegitables, and salad. At grandma's the meal ended with fruit. nuts and later pastries.

On Thursdays it was simply Macoroni and meatballs followed by a salad.

Fabrizio
February 25th, 2009, 02:46 PM
When it's well made, I love good Italian-American cooking... the good classic "red-sauce" restaurants... and home cooked food. To me it should not be compared to Italy... it lives in it's own universe.

But I have no tolerance for the national chains that serve up "Italian food" it's usually just awful.

Ninjahedge
February 25th, 2009, 03:15 PM
When it's well made, I love good Italian-American cooking... the good classic "red-sauce" restaurants... and home cooked food. To me it should not be compared to Italy... it lives in it's own universe.

But I have no tolerance for the national chains that serve up "Italian food" it's usually just awful.


Ugh!

Olive Garden???!?

And don't get me started about the idiots that can't tell a Pizza Hut ziti from an "authentic" Italian one. :p.

Finally, the commercials that tell you that they are the best because of a bunch of people that have never had really good pasta sauce like the jar of stuff with all the sugar in it..... Ragu? Prego? Bleh!

eddhead
February 26th, 2009, 09:04 PM
When it's well made, I love good Italian-American cooking... the good classic "red-sauce" restaurants... and home cooked food. To me it should not be compared to Italy... it lives in it's own universe.

But I have no tolerance for the national chains that serve up "Italian food" it's usually just awful.
Double agreed, although I should have noted that Grandma was straight off the boat, and so was Grandpa who was in fact an even better cook. In fact my Grandfather emmigrated later on in life, I believe he was in his late 30's or early 40's, and his style was closer to authentic

Jasonik
May 26th, 2009, 09:26 AM
'White African-American' Suing N.J. Med School for Discrimination
Paulo Serodio Says He Was Harassed, Assaulted After Defining Himself as African-American

By SARAH NETTER
May 13, 2009— (http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=7567291)

Can a white guy be African-American?

Paulo Serodio says he is.

Born and raised in Mozambique and now a naturalized U.S. citizen, Serodio, 45, has filed a lawsuit against a New Jersey medical school, claiming he was harassed and ultimately suspended for identifying himself during a class cultural exercise as a "white African-American."

"I wouldn't wish this to my worst enemy," he said. "I'm not exaggerating. This has destroyed my life, my career."

The lawsuit, which asks for Serodio's reinstatement at the school and monetary damages, named the Newark-based University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey and several doctors and university employees as defendants.

Filed Monday in U.S. District Court in New Jersey, the lawsuit traces a series of events that Serodio maintains led to his 2007 suspension, starting with a March 2006 cultural exercise in a clinical skills course taught by Dr. Kathy Ann Duncan, where each student was asked to define themselves for a discussion on culture and medicine.

After Serodio labeled himself as a white African-American, another student said she was offended by his comments and that, because of his white skin, was not an African-American.

According to the lawsuit, Serodio was summoned to Duncan's office where he was instructed "never to define himself as an African-American & because it was offensive to others and to people of color for him to do so."

"It's crazy," Serodio's attorney Gregg Zeff told ABCNews.com. "Because that's what he is."

Serodio, who lives in Newark, said he never meant to offend anyone and calling himself African-American doesn't detract from another person's heritage.

Neither the American Civil Liberties Union nor the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People responded to messages seeking comment on the meaning of African-American.

The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary defines African-American as "an American of African and especially of black African descent."

"There are people of all races who are African," Serodio said, adding that he's never had a problem identifying himself as an African-American until that day in Duncan's class.

Zeff pointed out that Serodio only labeled himself after his instructors asked him to do so and was then penalized for it.

Defending an Identity or Unprofessional Behavior?

Serodio said he is a third-generation African of Portuguese ethnicity whose great-grandfather emigrated to Mozambique. He came to the U.S. in 1984 after being accepted at New York University.

He met his future wife and started a family and, after deciding to settle in the U.S. permanently, got his citizenship in the early 1990s. After doing research work on and off, including for UMDNJ, with pauses in between to be a stay-at-home dad, Serodio said he decided to become a doctor to follow in his parents footsteps.

His plan, he said, was to become a doctor and join Doctors Without Borders where he could travel back to Africa to do charity work like his parents, either as an internist or possibly a neurologist. He started medical school, he said, when his eldest child was in first grade.

The family, he said, had hoped to hold a joint graduation party this spring for his son's passing out of fourth grade and for Serodio's graduation from medical school. But they will only be celebrating his son's achievements this year.

The lawsuit claims Serodio began to be harassed by other students who sought disciplinary action against him for his statement in Duncan's class, but was never given a chance to defend his views against the complaints.

UMDNJ spokesman Jeffrey Tolvin told ABCNews.com that university officials had not yet seen the lawsuit.

"We have no comment on this matter," he said.

In September 2006, Serodio said he again asked to define himself culturally as part of another course exercise. Again, according to the lawsuit he said he was a "white African-American." And again, he was called to the course instructor's office and told never to define himself that way again.

According to the lawsuit, Serodio then wrote an article for the student newspaper, titled "A More Colorful View Than Black and White," in an attempt to explain his self-identification and to call for tolerance at the school.

But when complaints started pouring into Dr. I. Thomas Cohen, then the dean of student affairs, the lawsuit alleges that Serodio was called in again and told by Cohen that if he "lay low for awhile" Cohen would see that a record of the incident would not be placed in Serodio's transcript.

Serodio told ABCNews.com that he believes that America has outgrown the labels of black and white, something he wrote about in the article.

His own children, he said, are of mixed ethnicity  European and Chinese. In his own case, he said, "There's a distinction to be made here between ethnicity and being from Africa."

Spiraling Out of Control

The lawsuit claims Serodio tried to stop publication on the newspaper article, but was too late. In response, the professor of the latter cultural class posted a reply on the bulletin boards at the medical school stating that Serodio "had failed to learn professionalism and humanism."

That's when, according to the lawsuit, the harassment, some physical, began in earnest. According to the lawsuit, Serodio's tires were vandalized in December of 2006, other students put up posters slamming him and he was denied protection by the school.

In January 2007, Serodio was made to promise he would never again write in any public forum at the school at the risk of facing disciplinary action, according to the lawsuit.

But Zeff said that the same month, his client was designated as the person who would take notes from a particular class for posting online, as was customary. The notes, Zeff said, contained a few jokes and comments as was typical for students who posted notes online and had been approved by the class professor.

But after a fellow student complained, the same professor that approved the notes filed a complaint about their content, according to the lawsuit, and school officials demanded that Serodio submit to a psychiatric evaluation.

The evaluation was given in April 2007 and Serodio was declared "fit for medical student functions," according to the lawsuit. But after a disciplinary hearing on April 1, which consisted of testimony from anyone claiming to be offended by Serodio's comments, he was notified of his suspension.

The lawsuit claims Serodio was suspended on May 15, 2007 for a period "of not less than one year."

Messages and e-mails left with Duncan and Cohen as well as UMDNJ Dean Dr. Robert Johnson were not returned.

His suspension, which Serodio said was for "unprofessional behavior," meant he was unable to take the board exams reserved for students preparing to enter third year and therefore could not transfer elsewhere to continue his education even though he completed all the second-year coursework.

Resolving the Issue

Serodio told ABCNews.com that he was technically reinstated last spring, but it was too late to start his third year because he still had not been allowed to take his second-year exams.

"I feel unprepared now," he said. "That was very penalizing to me."

So Serodio said he decided to take a year's leave of absence to spend time with his children and get things sorted out with the school, while trying to stay current on his studies for the exam.

The lawsuit is asking for reinstatement to UMDNJ and to the National Board of Medical Examiners so Serodio be allowed to take his board exams. The suit is also asking for recognition that UMDNJ's actions were discriminatory and retaliatory and for unspecified monetary damages.

"I felt this issue had to be resolved," he said.

For now, Serodio is hoping to be able to get his medical degree and put what he considers to be the humiliation of the incident behind him.

"He's lost a part of his career," Zeff said. "He's lost two years of his life."

Copyright © 2009 ABC News Internet Ventures

Alonzo-ny
May 26th, 2009, 10:26 AM
Epitome of stupidity.

Ninjahedge
May 27th, 2009, 10:53 AM
I think this is a shame, but it shows how stupid and "revese"-discriminatory humans can be. It is somehow wrong to be called "Black" or be juidged poorly by the color of your skin, but a White man can't be "African"?


I think the only mistake he made was by deliberately calling himself a "white" African American. By the same standard that he is siting as a guide for multicultural integration and cohabitation, his own segregation by applying the descriptor "white" to his nationality was unneeded.

If ANYTHING, people should have protested his need to somehow describe himself as anything different than just "African American".

I have a feeling he has had this fight before.