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Punzie
June 10th, 2007, 03:52 AM
The Way We Live Now
The Inequality Conundrum

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i130/Rapunzel61/EWNY/Business-Economics/income-distrube.jpg
THE RICH GET RICHER
Since 1979, the poor — the bottom fifth of the population by income —
have had remarkably stagnant earnings (adjusted for inflation).
Meanwhile, income for the top 1 percent of earners has soared.
Source: Congressional Budget Office



By ROGER LOWENSTEIN
The New York Times
June 10, 2007

In 1976, Richard Freeman wrote a book called “The Overeducated American.” So many Americans had been getting college degrees that the relative wages of white-collar professionals had started to fall. It no longer paid to go to college and, for most of the ’70s, fewer people did. Just so, incomes of the educated began to rise again.

People like Freeman, a labor-market economist, waited for the cycle to turn. They expected that with white-collar types riding high again, more people would stay in school, and incomes at the top would level off once more.

But they never did. Instead, the rich kept getting richer. Across the spectrum of American society, the higher your income category, the more your income continued to grow. And for a quarter-century, albeit with zigs and zags along the way, that rich-get-richer pattern has held. The figures are striking. In 2004, according to the Congressional Budget Office (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/c/congressional_budget_office/index.html?inline=nyt-org)’s latest official analysis, households in the lowest quintile of the country were making only 2 percent more (adjusted for inflation) than they were in 1979. Those in the next quintile managed only an 11 percent rise. And the middle group was up 15 percent. Do you sense a pattern? The income of families in the fourth quintile — upper-middle-class folks with an average yearly income of $82,000 — rose by 23 percent. Only when you get to the top quintile were the gains truly big — 63 percent.

Numbers like that have made inequality a hot topic, not only for liberals but also for Bush administration officials like Henry Paulson, the secretary of the Treasury. The press is full of stories of the outlandish wages of the superrich, like the 25 hedge-fund managers who each earned at least $240 million last year (the top dog took home $1.7 billion). Democrats are giving tougher scrutiny to trade bills and are now thinking the unthinkable: tax hikes for the rich. Inequality “isn’t good as an economic matter,” says Steven Rattner, an investment manager and contributor to Democratic politicians, “and it’s not good as a moral or social matter.” Writing in The Boston Globe, the columnist James Carroll said the current economic system is “eroding democracy” by awarding a larger share of the economic pie to the very rich and “impoverishing more and more human beings.”

The evidence for the last point is rather scant. The millions made by hedge-fund traders, or by entrepreneurs who founded companies like Google (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/companies/google_inc/index.html?inline=nyt-org), don’t diminish other people’s wages. Indeed, each helps to make the pie bigger. But what puzzled Freeman remains a mystery to this day.

Why isn’t prosperity spreading more equally? The leading theory has been that a global, high-tech economy creates big winners and losers. That is surely part of it. But Europe has computers, too, so where are all of its billionaires?

Countries like Sweden are more equal, but to some economists, they are probably too equal. There is a rough trade-off between equality and growth: if you try too hard to make everyone equal, you get fewer entrepreneurs, fewer Silicon Valleys and a lower standard of living.

Freeman, who is generally pro-union, says Sweden’s converging pay scales led to unemployment and deficits in the early ’90s, when it belatedly moved to create more incentives. Similarly, Gary Becker, a Nobel-winning economist, recalls visiting factories in Communist China in 1981: the workers were all lazing around. Now China has billionaires and the country is growing like Topsy.

You can boil down most economic policy debates — starting with Hamilton versus Jefferson and moving to Bush versus the Democrats — to this tension: how can you promote equality without killing off the genie of American prosperity? The trade-off is clear at the extremes but fuzzier in the middle. A little redistribution, cleverly designed, doesn’t hurt. One example might have occurred during the late ’90s. The stock market was crowning multimillionaires, but the poor also did a little better. Among households with children, cash earnings of the poorest quintile doubled (though their earnings, at $13,000, remained meager and have tapered off more recently).

Most of the improvement at the bottom was because of people working more hours rather than for higher wages: a red-hot economy provided more jobs. The retooled federal welfare program, however, as well as the expansion of the earned-income tax credit (E.I.T.C.), gave people an added financial incentive to work.

Some redistribution is clearly good for the entire economy — providing public schooling, for instance, so that everyone gets an education. But public education aside, the United States has a pretty high tolerance for inequality. Americans care about “fairness” more than about “equalness.”

We boo athletes suspected of taking steroids, but we admire billionaires.

The extreme divergence of American incomes we see today, however, is actually rather new. For most of the 20th century, America was becoming more egalitarian. The United States seemingly conformed to the standard theory of development, which held that industrialization produces fat cats at first (as factory owners rake it in) and then a more general prosperity as workers become more productive. It’s a feel-good theory that says, “Don’t worry if the rich are prospering; the poor will have their day.”

Emmanuel Saez, a French economist at the University of California (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/u/university_of_california/index.html?inline=nyt-org) at Berkeley who studies American inequality, looked more closely and discovered that theory and history didn’t quite mesh. Saez and his colleague, Thomas Piketty (who is based in Paris), plotted income distributions in America back to 1913. The share of income enjoyed by the rich was high in the 1920s, then stable or falling during most of the next half-century. In the ’70s, the cycle seemed to start again — perhaps because “a new industrial revolution” (in technology) inspired a renewed period of inequality.

But Saez noticed some inconsistencies. During the ’40s, the share of those at the top fell very steeply. He doubted that a gradual process like industrialization could have caused it. More likely, the culprit was the combined shock of the Great Depression and World War II, when the United States imposed wage controls. That left a puzzle: Why didn’t top earners recover their shares soon after the war?

Saez hypothesized that the answer lay with various nonmarket factors.

Some were institutional, like the strength of postwar labor unions. Some were cultural, like the reluctance of boards to pay their chief executives an unseemly amount. The progressive tax code prevented accumulations by the upper crust and thus reduced how much they could earn in the future.

By the ’70s, the share of income earned by those at the top was far lower than when Woodrow Wilson was president. The social and institutional forces alluded to by Saez, however, were already moving in reverse. This might explain why inequality grew in the United States but not in Europe. In the United States, the marginal tax rate was sharply reduced (during the Reagan years, from 70 percent to 28 percent) and unions gradually lost their clout. Also, beginning in 1979, the minimum wage (in real terms) began to decline.

Before you get too misty-eyed over the ’70s, remember that while the decade may have been a high-water mark for American egalitarianism, the country was also in its worst economic funk since the Great Depression. Unemployment and inflation were raging, growth was tepid and the stock market was depressed. An economist named Alan Greenspan (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/g/alan_greenspan/index.html?inline=nyt-per) termed it “the Great Malaise.”

You can think of most of what has contributed to rising inequality since then as a reaction against the ’70s. A number of industries — banking, trucking, airlines, energy, telecommunications — were deregulated. Trade barriers were loosened, which had a similar effect on other once-protected industries like autos and steel. Antitrust regulation diminished, permitting more big-time mergers. The elimination of controls and the creation of new financial instruments let risk-takers make bets on everything from interest rates to foreign currencies. The purpose was to unshackle the economy, but it also created a society of multimillionaires.

In one specific case, the link was quite explicit. After the weak stock market of the ’70s, academics like Michael Jensen of Harvard (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/h/harvard_university/index.html?inline=nyt-org) began to promote stock options and other incentives as a means of motivating corporate executives. Boardroom notions of propriety underwent a sea change. Lee Iacocca once told Larry King that no executive was worth $1 million. That wouldn’t cover fringe benefits for C.E.O.’s nowadays.

Indeed, executive pay is probably a glaring example of an overreaction to the ’70s. Executive compensation isn’t set in a pure market; it is administered by (often-friendly) directors. That C.E.O.’s have been very handsomely rewarded for failure, while many more have become exceedingly rich almost irrespective of their performance, violates every conservative piety about designing the right incentives.

It’s harder to make that case against high-income earners generally, because most are claiming market rewards. If Bono sells a lot of CDs, or if a leading cardiologist sets high rates and wealthy patients agree to pay them, it’s difficult to say that they are “wrong.” It’s simply the market.

And the market has helped them prosper. In 1979, the upper 1 percent of the United States collected 9 percent of total income. Now they get 16 percent. That’s an enormous increase. But beneath the very top, the trend toward inequality has been less marked. For instance, those in the middle of the income spectrum used to earn 3.2 times as much as those at the bottom; that ratio has widened, but only to 3.65 times as much. The real action has occurred between folks in the top percentile — those who, in 2004, earned an average of $1.3 million — and everyone else. (A little thought exercise: if the very upper crust were banished to a Caribbean island, the America that remained would be a lot more egalitarian.)

But whether Roger Clemens (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/c/roger_clemens/index.html?inline=nyt-per), who will get something like $10,000 for every pitch that he throws, earns 100 times or 200 times what I earn is kind of irrelevant. My kids still have health care, and they go to decent schools.

It’s not the rich people pulling away at the top who are the problem; it’s that so many have been stuck for so long at the bottom and in the middle.

This is why one of the really good books on the subject, “Inequality in America,” by the economists James Heckman and Alan Krueger, is all about raising the incomes of people at the bottom. Punishing those at the top doesn’t help.

When it comes to raising the bottom in the short term, Washington basically has two choices: it can try to change market outcomes or it can redistribute after the market results are in. The first method is more intrusive. It includes limiting trade, regulating the workweek or restricting access to certain jobs, through mechanisms like licensing. Since the ’70s, the United States has moved away from such market interventions, but Congress seems to be acting on two of them. It just voted to raise the minimum wage, for the first time in 10 years, and it is seeking a compromise to revise the immigration (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/i/immigration_and_refugees/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) laws.

And what about redistribution after the fact? The United States does less of it than Europe, and less of it than we used to. Even though the United States is richer than Belgium, a poor person in Belgium is better off than one here. On the other hand, the price for being Belgian is steep: Belgium’s median disposable income — what people have left to spend after they pay taxes and collect welfare-type payments — is only 72 percent as high as ours.

Even in the United States, the rich pay a disproportionate share of the federal income tax, which mildly reduces inequality. Other taxes, however, like Social Security, are regressive: the rich pay a lesser share. Thus, the upper tenth of households pay 70 percent of the income tax, but only 52 percent of all federal taxes. State sales taxes make the system even more regressive, because poorer people spend a higher share of their total income on them. Kevin Hassett, of the American Enterprise Institute, estimates that a family of four earning $50,000 pays exactly the same share of its income (30 percent) on taxes as one earning $150,000.

There is little agreement on how much redistribution is too much. But common sense tells you that a small increase in taxes when rates are relatively low, as they are now, isn’t going to curb people’s animal spirits.

Higher taxes in and of themselves, however, won’t cure inequality. The point of taxing, as Becker is quick to point out, isn’t to confiscate: it’s to raise revenue for things that will benefit society, in this case helping those at the bottom. Though such thinking is a good argument for further expanding the E.I.T.C., which rewards people for working, in the long run you want to get folks moving up the skills ladder, so fewer people are in need of wealth redistribution. That this hasn’t happened is rather a conundrum. The incentives are certainly there. College grads make more than 40 percent more than high-school grads. Those with postgraduate degrees earn twice as much.

To Becker, this is a good thing; it offers an incentive for people to pursue education. The trouble is, it hasn’t worked. The Americans that Freeman once called overeducated are plainly undereducated today. Only about a third of the population graduates from college. Among the poor, there has been only a very slight increase in college-graduation rates.

To get more Americans to enroll in and complete college, the theory goes, you can either fix the schools (more teachers, longer school years, more student loans (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/s/student_loans/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier)) or fix the students (more nurturing of kids from disadvantaged homes). Both approaches would cost a lot. But if you’re worried about inequality, it’s hard to see any alternative. Hamburger flippers simply don’t command a high wage. We can pass laws to change that — a minimum price for cheeseburgers, maybe — or we can, finally, invest in teaching the flippers to do something else.

Roger Lowenstein is a contributing writer for the magazine.

Copyright 2007 (http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/copyright.html) The New York Times Company (http://www.nytco.com/)


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/10/magazine/10wwln-lede-t.html?ref=us

pianoman11686
June 10th, 2007, 04:19 PM
From http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showpost.php?p=169344&postcount=14, (posted by Rapunzel):


Some redistribution is clearly good for the entire economy — providing public schooling, for instance, so that everyone gets an education. But public education aside, the United States has a pretty high tolerance for inequality. Americans care about “fairness” more than about “equalness.”That's because the ideals of America have traditionally relied on providing for equal opportunities, not equal results.


Before you get too misty-eyed over the ’70s, remember that while the decade may have been a high-water mark for American egalitarianism, the country was also in its worst economic funk since the Great Depression. Unemployment and inflation were raging, growth was tepid and the stock market was depressed. An economist named Alan Greenspan (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/g/alan_greenspan/index.html?inline=nyt-per) termed it “the Great Malaise.”It was also a high-water mark for crime, violence, cultural dissatisfaction, and political disillusionment.


You can think of most of what has contributed to rising inequality since then as a reaction against the ’70s. A number of industries — banking, trucking, airlines, energy, telecommunications — were deregulated. Trade barriers were loosened, which had a similar effect on other once-protected industries like autos and steel. Antitrust regulation diminished, permitting more big-time mergers. The elimination of controls and the creation of new financial instruments let risk-takers make bets on everything from interest rates to foreign currencies. The purpose was to unshackle the economy, but it also created a society of multimillionaires.The purpose also had a secondary goal: to restore American competitiveness on the global market. A few decades of union-dominated manufacturing had caused costs to rise, while productivity to fall. Deregulation fixed the problems in the aggregate, but of course led to thousands of individual cases of layoffs, loss of pensions, etc.


This is why one of the really good books on the subject, “Inequality in America,” by the economists James Heckman and Alan Krueger, is all about raising the incomes of people at the bottom. Punishing those at the top doesn’t help.An important, and correct, distinction.


Higher taxes in and of themselves, however, won’t cure inequality. The point of taxing, as Becker is quick to point out, isn’t to confiscate: it’s to raise revenue for things that will benefit society, in this case helping those at the bottom. Though such thinking is a good argument for further expanding the E.I.T.C., which rewards people for working, in the long run you want to get folks moving up the skills ladder, so fewer people are in need of wealth redistribution. That this hasn’t happened is rather a conundrum. The incentives are certainly there. College grads make more than 40 percent more than high-school grads. Those with postgraduate degrees earn twice as much.

To Becker, this is a good thing; it offers an incentive for people to pursue education. The trouble is, it hasn’t worked. The Americans that Freeman once called overeducated are plainly undereducated today. Only about a third of the population graduates from college. Among the poor, there has been only a very slight increase in college-graduation rates.

To get more Americans to enroll in and complete college, the theory goes, you can either fix the schools (more teachers, longer school years, more student loans (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/s/student_loans/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier)) or fix the students (more nurturing of kids from disadvantaged homes). Both approaches would cost a lot. But if you’re worried about inequality, it’s hard to see any alternative. Hamburger flippers simply don’t command a high wage. We can pass laws to change that — a minimum price for cheeseburgers, maybe — or we can, finally, invest in teaching the flippers to do something else.A sensible conclusion.

Punzie
June 10th, 2007, 08:30 PM
Today's Sunday NY Times (6/10) Magazine Section is the "money issue," with several articles specifically addressing the "income gap" and economic classes. John Edwards is on the cover, (surprise, surprise), with his "War on Poverty" featured.

Whoever finds the thread's subject matter especially interesting should obtain a hard copy of the NY Times Magazine and read it at leisure; the Times online links expire quickly.

eddhead
June 11th, 2007, 05:05 PM
I posted similar information on the China Capitalism at its Best Thread, but I thought it would be worth revisiting in summary form here.

According to Fed Chairman Ben Bernake, despite substantive gains in average real wages over the past 30 years or so, real wage at the 10th income percentile rose just 4% from 1979 to 2006 as compared to a 34% increase in the 90th percentile and 166% in the top 99th percentile over the same period.
In total inflation adjusted median income levels actually declined from $39,227 in 1979 to $38,782 in 1994. I am unable to locate median income levels statistics from 1994 onwards, however we do know that median income levels for men in their 30's decreased from an inflation adjusted $40,000 per year in 1964 to 2004 leveles of $35,000 per yr.
Personal debt is at an alltime high as are personal bankrupcy rates which dropped for the first time in 16 years last year largly as a result of a change in laws with respect to who is eligible to declare.
As an example of outrageous exec comp, look at Ford Motor. Bill Ford who who was CEO through Sep of 2006 was awarded $10MM in options for presiding over a company that lost $12bn (yes that is BILLION) over that period. Alan Mulaly who became CEO in October earned $28MM for 4 mos worth of work through year end. Total CEO comp = $38MM for that stellar performance.
But that did not stop Ford from cutting 10,000 positons and offerred termination packages to 75,000 others in the 4th qtr last year (forbes sept issue).There are dozens of similar examples but this is the most outrageous

JerseyBrett
September 6th, 2007, 08:07 PM
I've read extensively on this subject during my last semester at college (not bad for an accounting major, haha) and it is a very complicated issue. I've also commented on this same topic in another thread on this forum. Robert Samuelson, an economic columnist for Newsweek has finally shed light on this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20603729/site/newsweek/

Why no one is the major news media would even mention low-skilled immigration in this debate on inequality is absolutely beyond me. Look, as I've said before I am a strong supporter of immigration for obvious reasons. Sun Computers, Google and Computer Associates for example would simply not be American companies if we didn't have immigration. What I'm worried about is massive low-skilled immigration into a welfare state. It's a huge problem here and it is much worse in Europe. The late Milton Friedman, a strong supporter of open immigration and the son of Ukranian immigrants said back in the 1970s: 'It’s just obvious that you can’t have free immigration and a welfare state.” New Jersey taxpayers are paying for this right now with 20% foreign-born residents. A high percentage of those immigrants are low-skilled.

As I stated in another post, my solution is to significantly curb low-skilled immigration and increase the amount of visas available to high skilled workers. There is no doubt in my mind that we would be better off. Now, what is deeply concerning to me about the poor in this country (as well as Europe) is the amount of children being born outside of wedlock. Currently, the percentage of children being born out of wedlock is 35%, including 70% of african-american children. Those numbers are incredibly depressing. To put those numbers in perspective, in 1940 and 1960, 4% and 5% of children were born out of wedlock. A further examination shows that almost all of the children born out of wedlock is concentrated at the lower end of the scale. The illegitimacy rates of college graduates is at 1948 levels.

Solutions to illigitimacy: The extreme and simple answer is the end the welfare state. Obviously this is politically infeasible so I would suggest to follow Charles Murray's ideas in his book, "In Our Hands: A Plan to Replace the Welfare State." The notion that the NY Times and John Edwards would never mention immigration and illegitimacy is bizarre to me....

212
September 6th, 2007, 08:57 PM
^ Uh, remember the '90s?

Americans of every ethnicity, income level and education level got richer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States).

This coincided with a huge wave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States#Immigration_summa ry_1830_to_2000) of immigration.

Rising incomes ... rising immigration ... at the same time ... hmm, remind me again why immigration is the problem?

JerseyBrett
September 7th, 2007, 01:27 AM
212, I absolutely agree with you that since the 1990s that the basic trend in household income is up. However, the big debate on inequality has been that incomes on the lower end of the scale have not kept up with incomes at the higher end. Well, this should be no shock to most people as the vast majority of immigrants have been lower-skilled people. This should not be a problem over the long run as it was not a problem in the early 1900s. However, we did not have a welfare state in the early 1900s as the state only spent 5-10% of national income and there were very little state-run social programs. Today, the state spends 40% of our national income, most of it on welfare programs, including SS, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. What I object to are politicians who refuse to look closely at the data and devise draconian welfare programs that come at the expense of everyone, including the people they are trying to serve. This is because governments are largely incapable of dealing with complex human needs.

Now I am willing to concede that in today's high skilled economy, people at the higher end of the scale with higher skills are going to have incomes that will raise at higher rates. However, as we've seen in Europe when you stifle people with more skills, you essentially stagnate society. That is why you have net emigration in countries such as Germany, France, Holland. Even people are now leaving Britain. These high skilled workers go to countries such as the US, Australia, Switzerland, etc. When you punish people such as Sergey Brin(Google) and Bill Gates in a free society, you end of punishing people at the lower end too. That's why I believe capitalism is the only system compatible with freedom.

Now, regarding white and black poverty rates, I don't expect them to come down very much until the welfare state is ruptured. The white poverty rate hasn't changed much since 1965. Because 70% of black children are born out of wedlock, mostly at the lower end of the scale, I don't expect poverty to decrease significantly. Also, the reason the poverty rate has stayed at roughly the same level over the last 40 years is because the difference has been made up by low-skilled immigration.

Again, my solutions are to significantly reduce low-skilled immigration and to increase high-skilled immigration. Anyone who visits any tech company in America and goes to any major university knows the major contributions that high skilled immigrants can make. Also, I encourage you to read Charles Murray's "In Our Hands: A Plan a Replace the Welfare State." Although he is a libertarian, he states that his plan is essentially a great compromise between libertarians and liberals. Basically, it says we'll give you big government in terms of spending but we'll give you small government in terms of its stage-managment of people's lives. IMO, this is the only way you will be able to tackle problems such as illigitimacy. This problem won't go away in today's welfare state. However, politicians want to get elected so they won't propose any radical measures. Also, clowns like Lou Dobbs refuse to look closely at the data. His methods for solving complex problems are actually quite childish....

JerseyBrett
September 7th, 2007, 01:41 AM
Forgot to mention household income. When politicians and clowns like Lou Dobbs state that household income is up only slightly over 25 years, they are completely misleading the public. Yes, household income is up only slightly on its face value but households have dramatically changed over the last 30-40 years, including singles, DINKs, retirees, etc. If you take households with two-people, median household income is up 15%. Again, politicians want more control and don't cite these numbers in debate. One day people will realize that governments are simply incapable of dealing with complex human needs.

Ninjahedge
September 7th, 2007, 10:55 AM
I believe teh welfare state is failing in two major realms.

1. Responsibility/Skill development. Unlike projects like Habitat for Humanity, welfare pretty much rewards you for doing nothing. I am not saying that anyone on Welfare is living ni luxury, far from it. But there is very little in the welfare system, like day care and job training, to encourage professional development.

You can spread as much crap in a field as you want, if you don't PLANT anything, all you end up with is weeds.

2. The gap. There is a rather significant gap between Welfare benefits and full-time minimum wage employment. Why would ANYONE in their right mind want to work hard to bring in less money?


Add to that that once a family lives on this system for several generations, it is very hard to break the cycle.

Our whole system has to look to more ways to train and prepare our population to be compeditive in many fields, not to just hand out to keep the bottom from falling out.


As for kids? Strange thing is, the people that feel that they have more to lose if they have a kid are, if you reworked the numbers to fit this condition, less likely to HAVE a kid early or without means of support (in or out of wedlock). The ones that feel that they have nothing else are more likely to have kids for a number of reasons.

1. Desire to have someone that relies on them. Someone who needs them.
2. Inadequate sexual education.
3. Welfare that pays more for kids than without (and people that do not realize the cost of raising kids)
4. "Everyone else is doing it".
5. Lack of responsibility/carelessness.

There are many other reasons, but these are probably the most damaging. How can you stop this? And how can you REFORM Welfare without scuttling it and building a new ship? That MAY be the best way to do it, but it would NEVER get approved.

SO what would work, and still be acceptable to the voting public?

JerseyBrett
September 7th, 2007, 12:02 PM
I acutally have a very wide view of what constitutes the welfare state. I think many of us like to think that we are not part of the welfare state but I don't see how you can have federal, state and local governments spending 40% of the national income, mostly on transfer payments and not think this is a welfare state. Sure, its not as intrusive as France or Germany but its still very large. Yes, I consider, SS, Medicaid, food stamps, SCHIP part of the welfare state. This is why I'm strongly opposed to low-skilled immigration and illegal immigration into a welfare state because it ultimately becomes hugely expensive for everyone without being very effective for its constituents.

Look, New York City is the greatest city in the world because of its immigrants. However, the great immigration wave of the early 1900s occurred with government spending about 5-10% of national income, almost none of it on social programs. Essentially, it was sink or swin. However, what made these waves of immigrants successful is that they dealt with these problems as familes and communities. Now, we decided to let the state deal with these problems. I think its pretty clear that government is simply incapable of dealing with these problems, no matter who is in office.

Again, I strongly believe that the US should increase the number of visas given to high-skilled workers and decrease the number of low-skilled workers. I've studied Europe extensively over the last few months and it would surprise people to know that Germany, Holland and many other countries currently have net emigration with the best and brightest leaving to go to countries such as the US, Australia, Switzerland, etc. Even young Britons are leaving to go to Australia, US and Canada. This should bode well for the US and we should allow other high skilled workers from ALL corners of the world to come here.

Finally, regarding welfare reform, I think there was a misconception of what it tried to do. It essentially really only tried to get single moms to work. It was hugely successful but it did not try to deal with putting together families. In this regard, it really can't deal with illigitimacy in its current form. To really put back together families at the lower end of the income scale, the most genius idea I have read is this one: http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008142

Tell me what you think....

212
September 7th, 2007, 12:46 PM
The success of the 1990s showed us that we can have

- an expanding economy
- higher incomes at all levels
- less government debt
- less crime
- less teen pregnancy
- substantial immigration
- and a social safety net in the United States

all at the same time.

Ninjahedge
September 7th, 2007, 03:37 PM
The success of the 1990s showed us that we can have

- an expanding economy
- higher incomes at all levels
- less government debt
- less crime
- less teen pregnancy
- substantial immigration
- and a social safety net in the United States

all at the same time.

Not necessarily.

1990s also had the dot-com explosion that had nothing at all to do with immigration.

It is like saying the 80's were teh best of times when most of the money was made breaking up our own national assets and selling them to foreign interests.

Say hello to Sony!!!! ;)

I think there needs to be proper control of the flows and currents that we have in our country. Immigrannt labor, unskilled, is still needed for most of the grunt work we have noone else willing to do.

The systems we have right now try to help too much on some places, and grab too tight in others. They need to be reworked to get the most out of all the human resources we have, and are getting.

Front_Porch
September 7th, 2007, 03:53 PM
I think when you guys use the phrase "welfare state" disparagingly you are assuming that most of those transfer payments are going to lower-skilled, lower-paid new arrivals . . but I think the majority of them are actually going to older, higher-skilled, higher-paid middle-class and upper-middle class Americans.

even on a local level, look at New York housing taxation policy . . .those 421(a) housing development credits are subsidizing new condos for an NYC middle-class/professional class . . .

What's that Walt Kelly line? "We have met the enemy and he is us"


ali r.
{downtown broker}

eddhead
September 7th, 2007, 04:53 PM
I find it interesting that discussions around the 'welfare' state never seem to focust on corporate welfare estimated to be in the range of $75bn and $125bn a year depending on weather or not you consider tax loopholes to be within the definition but if you are going to include 421A abatements you have to include corporate tax loopholes as well, so let's call it an even $125bn
http://www.cato.org/pubs/handbook/hb105-9.html


Also what about the farm subsidies estimated at $25BN in 2005. Interesting reading here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/01/AR2006070100962.html. Any wonder why the so called real america heartland gets more back in federal subsidies than they pay in taxes?

Of courst that is a pittance compared to what we are spending in Iraq. All those sweet, no bid corporate contracts... of course that is not really welfare.. more like corruption ans waste.

The reason we focus on entittlement programs aimed at the poor is quite simple.. they do not have a lobby group so they are politically expendable. But let's be honest.. these programs reek of reverse robin hood-ism and they are shamefull.

Ninjahedge
September 7th, 2007, 05:38 PM
Bottom line.

If the money actually went where it was supposed to as was intended by these progams, we would not have all this trouble. But the waste and appropriations by the individuals that handle the cash or pass it on down the line is horrendous!

212
September 7th, 2007, 07:00 PM
As much as I've rhapsodized about the '90s, I should mention that income disparities did not improve significantly. Still, it was a rising tide, and poor Americans (especially in the cities) made impressive gains.

What worked? A few things, which I'm sure people can add to ...

Lower taxes: In 1994, Congress expanded the Earned Income Tax Credit, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_Income_Tax_Credit) which rewards low-income workers. About 20 states have similar credits, and so do some cities, including NYC.

Less redlining: The feds' crackdown in the 1990s on redlining (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining) by banks enabled more property ownership in poor and minority neighborhoods. (Lately enforcement has gotten more lax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act), and we've also seen another form of redlining with high-interest subprime mortgages.)

More police: From 1992 through 2000, the nation gained more than 100,000 police officers (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/csllea04.pdf). The corresponding drop in crime, felt most right here in NYC, brought poor neighborhoods back to life and made them safer for business. (Since 2000, police hiring nationwide has slowed by more than half, and no longer keeps up with population increases.)

JerseyBrett
September 8th, 2007, 02:53 AM
I don't have too much time to comment right now but I will say that corporate welfare is a HUGE problem in this country (as well as others) and receives very little attention in the media. Its disgraceful that agricultural companies such as ArcherDanielsMidland receive enormous subsidies to grow and not grow corn, both at the same time! At this point in time, ethanol is largely a hoax and is simply a massive transfer payment to large farming companies. This will always occur in a system where government spends 40% of our national income.

Just to clarify, when I talk about the "welfare state" I don't just consider transfer payments to low-income people but massive transfer payments to people at all income levels including people living on 5th Avenue. I don't expect any change in our system until people realize that it is simply ineffectual and too expensive. As I mentioned before, I strongly favor Charles Murray's radical reform of "In Our Hands." This is the great compromise between libertarians and liberals which says we'll give you big government in terms of spending and small government in terms of its effects on people. This is the most sensible, practical and compassionate suggestion I have heard yet. However, its probably at least 15 years away....

212
September 8th, 2007, 11:28 AM
Looking forward, six areas in which localities, states and the feds could ensure more equal opportunity ...

Health: Expand insurance coverage, especially for children.

Food: Reduce corn subsidies. I agree with JerseyBrett and eddhead. We're all getting fat and diabetic because empty-calorie foods stuffed with corn syrup are so much cheaper than healthy foods. Poor people, being most sensitive to price, have the worst problem.

Education: Give bonuses to teachers who work in poor neighborhoods. Right now experienced teachers head to the suburbs, where they earn more money and teach easier kids.

Employment: Fund zero-interest micro-loans to home-grown small businesses in poor neighborhoods.

Housing: Do something about foreclosures, quickly. They're doubly harmful because you end up with a homeless family and a vacant house (crime magnet).

Crime: Hire more community police, probation officers, parole officers. Poor neighborhoods bounce back when people stop living in fear.